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Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

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Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#501

Post by Verdex »

franciscop wrote: post #435
Verdex wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I see what you're saying. I really do. But it feels a bit cynical to me. Personally, I think everyone should try giving 20% (or more, haven't you ever received some freshly cooked chicken nuggets and just knew that they were delivered to the store with extra care) to every individual and/or corporate entity in the entire supply chain. It just increases the feeling of community in an ever growing global landsc…

I don't agree, I think money is a fairly poor incentice for increasing the level of community and might even do the opposite and make it too profit-based. I think everyone should be putting the extra effort on treating others with care instead! That increases the feeling of community. Got those lovely nuggets? Buy there again, tell their manager how great the service was, and be a great customer. Also, treat better t…

(psst, this series of responses are kind of a joke)

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#502

Post by seancaptain »

Hi. I'm a Fast Company reporter, and we've been investigating this and many other issues for about a week, including asking Instacart to explain them all. Stay tuned for a full report this week or early next. Thanks, Sean Captain @seancaptain

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#503

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

aqme28 wrote: post #162
lenticular wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't wage theft since they are independent contractors. It's more like a company stiffing a supplier. More of a civil than criminal matter. Of course, these folks wouldn't have the resources to sue anyway, even if they weren't bound by binding arbitration.

> More of a civil than criminal matter I think the question though is _why_ is that? If I steal $950 from someone then it's criminal, but if I refuse to pay them what I agreed then it's civil. It's an odd discrepancy IMO.

Well, if you steal it, it's criminal, but that's simply because that's the definition of theft.

Taking stuff away from people, though, is not necessarily theft, and also not necessarily criminal. If you accidentally take someone else's property because you confused it with your own, for example, that's not criminal, but the other party still has a civil claim against you (namely, to be given back their property).

On the other hand, if you intentionally mislead someone into providing you with some service or product, promising to pay them for it, even though you never intended to pay, that constitutes fraud and is very much criminal.

Generally, it's criminal if it's in the interest of the public and civil if it is primarily in the interest of some party. Not paying some debt because you actually have doubts that you have to pay, or due to an honest mistake is not really something that affects anyone else. Someone intentionally causing situatons where others can't rely on them fulfilling their legal oblications can erode trust in a society, therefore it is in the public interest to prevent that. The boundaries can be fuzzy, but wage theft can very much be criminal.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#504

Post by thaumasiotes »

mannykannot wrote: post #91
_t2kx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. This is 100% wage theft.

And while it is not as important an issue, I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens (now that I am aware that this does happen, I assume that it has probably been done with some tips I have made.) To be clear: this is not an alternative way of looking at the issue, it is an additional indictment stemming from the practice.

> I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens

It is standard (though not universal) practice for restaurant staff to pool and divide tips, which would appear to be the same thing from a defrauding-the-tipper perspective.

I'm more upset about this line from Instacart:

> We include tips in the calculation [of pay for deliveries] so that you can get a more accurate picture of what your earnings will be after completing a batch.

This is incredibly dishonest. They're arguing with a straight face that they're doing you a favor by smoothing your earnings from an unpredictable (for example) $8-$50 per hour down to a more reliable $8-$9 per hour.

This is actually the same argument the US government advances in favor of its sugar tariff. Sure, it raises the price of sugar by 200% on average, but it protects us from the awful unpredictability of the world sugar price.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#507

Post by nerpderp83 »

jacurtis wrote: post #479
Zimahl wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be legal in Texas, but in Washington it's explicitly illegal. In the state, tips are completely irrelevant to base pay, all employees must get paid at least minimum wage as base pay. Instacart is going to get fucked very quickly by the Washington AG. This is as bad as Walmart not paying employees for overtime.

Especially because Washington's Attorney General is particularly fond of jumping on cases like this, particularly worker rights. But he is also fond of keeping startups in line. So this is a double-whammy case for him.

I'd love to see someone at Instacsrt jailed for wage theft.

They should have to pay back "the winnings" by 3x and fire the people involved.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#508

Post by darkpuma »

FireBeyond wrote: post #353
airstrike wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever seen anyone accurately report tips earned in cash?

If they're under the IRS estimate? Absolutely. Above? Not so much. A lot of wait staff seem content to push mis-information: "If you tip poorly, the IRS makes us pay tax on it anyway, i.e. we're having to pay to serve you!" No, the IRS makes an estimate on how much tipped workers are paid. If you document and it's less, then you pay tax on that. But using the IRS as the big bad wolf to get more tips that you know dam…

I've never heard wait staff making claims like that about the IRS, but what I can say is that if wait staff didn't want to get more money, they'd be quite unique in that respect...

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#509

Post by atombender »

rafiki6 wrote: post #390
mxfh wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping is the "trickle down"-myth's small scale cousin. It doesn't only take away responsibility of paying, but adds emotional and mental load cost to the customer. It's hilarious that people accept that in exchange for an illusory level of control (you being the mini manager/boss of your service task) over quality of service.

I think many people just haven't traveled to for e.g. many European countries where tipping culture is mostly non-existent because over there people the service industry receive appropriate wages and the prices of things are adjusted accordingly. The quality of service is good, and the people working seem much happier. They have a guaranteed income for their time.

In Europe the cultural meaning of a tip is also different than the US -- you tip for superb service, and it's generally only in restaurants.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#510

Post by nerpderp83 »

paulgb wrote: post #132
lenticular wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not necessarily true. Folks in the gig economy are often classed as "independent contractors" and thus are not subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act, including minimum wage laws. They also are not entitled to, nor almost ever receive, reimbursements for work expenses. When you are talking about using your own vehicle and paying for depreciation, mechanical work, and gas, this is considerable. It often winds…

That's a shame. I wonder if customers have any recourse? I'd feel absolutely defrauded if I found out a tip I made through a service like this was (effectively) going to the operator rather than the person who the app represented it as going to. I don't think "oh the tip went to the contractor we just lowered their wages by the same amount" sounds convincing in a court room.

Class action lawsuit.
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