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Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

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Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#361

Post by mruts »

paxy wrote: post #152
nck4222 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Forcing people to tip to ensure people get paid enough money is a consequence of the system, not the reasoning why the system is implemented.

Plus all studies done on tipping have disputed this. Tips don't depend on the quality of service but rather on how attractive and flirty the waitress is.

Service is defined by how satisfied the customer is. Being attractive and flirty is a component (maybe not absolutely integral, but still a value-add, I think most would agree)

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#362

Post by tchaffee »

bambax wrote: post #314

Startup culture is a study in psychopathy. - lack of empathy: Uber, Instacart, etc. etc. etc., exploiting the poor - parasitic behavior: aggressive tax optimisation/tax evasion, Amazon employees relying on food stamps for subsistance - superficial charm: get rich quick - pathological lying: cf. Facebook denying they ever did anything wrong - manipulativeness: "make the world more open and connected" and my personal f…

That's quite a broad generalization. For sure a lot of the biggest names have done ethically questionable things. It's no doubt that growing that fast and gaining that much power is going to hugely amplify whatever ethical flaws the founders have. And no one is ethically perfect. That's not to excuse Uber, Facebook, Google, Amazon or any of the more egregious companies.

But it's just a case of confirmation bias if you didn't look for counter-examples to try to disprove your theory.

Are the following companies ethically perfect? I doubt it. But I haven't heard much bad about them and they have changed my life for the better significantly: AirBnb, Dropbox, Stripe, Rappi, WhatsApp, Square, Netflix. I bet I could find others.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#363

Post by darkpuma »

debt wrote: post #115

Instacart is AWFUL. They're paying shit wages and thus offering shit quality, because they're offering a service that literally is unscalable. The logistics of laser-guided-bomb-type delivery of groceries from store to fridge is asinine. Yo, grocery store shopping doesn't suck bad enough to pay someone else to do both the shopping and delivering! I'll pick up the pre-picked-up/bought groceries. I don't need you to de…

> "The logistics of laser-guided-bomb-type delivery of groceries from store to fridge is asinine."

Eh, most grocery stores have offered delivery service for decades, but this service typically isn't advertised to the 'young yuppie/hipser with disposable income' demographic because traditionally it's been assumed that the people who need/want grocery delivery are the elderly and infirm.

If you go looking for it or ask about it, you'll probably find it's available. It's much less formal and digital than instacart; it's typically not as trendy and sexy as a smartphone app. But that's likely a reflection of the target demographic they have in mind.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#364

Post by reitzensteinm »

halr9000 wrote: post #335
burger_moon wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry tweets about this before I forget about it and move on to the next thing to be upset about today.

I'm not even going to send an angry tweet. I'm going to keep ordering. If a driver takes the job, at the price Instacart wants to pay, it's on the driver, of course. And this works until it doesn't! Once people quit driving for IC, THIS is the market price signal which will cause the system to reconfigure. If IC can't get drivers, they must pay more! I have zero illusions that enough people understand the free market…

Instacart is defrauding their customers, who believe the tips are going to the driver, not straight into Instacart's pocket.

Customer awareness is the free market solution to this, if that's the hammer you want to use to fix everything.

Maybe grade school should focus on reading comprehension.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#365

Post by JauntyHatAngle »

jyrkesh wrote: post #326
jopsen wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is why you have regulation, and need unions. Consumers have enough parameters to optimize for: price of groceries, cost of delivery, fair trade, availability of products, delivery speed, convenience, availability of delivery slots, the list is long. Consumers are relatively good at optimizing for cost, not perfect -- but asking for more than that is unrealistic.

But asking consumers to vote for moral, intelligent legislative agents is somehow better? Optimizing for past opinions, moral fiber, understanding of the issues, etc. is easier? Personal responsibility is required in a good society, irrespective of the system of government or the level of regulation that currently exists. Even if it's consumers/voters pushing their legislators to build regulations, you need a mass of…

The problem is that corporations have people beat in terms of being able to obfuscate their business practices. While certainly true that people can often cause a business to change its actions when a big scandal come out, it's usually only the very obvious or very stupid, or relies on quality investigative journalism or things to quickly spread on social media to a large enough amount of people - and despite this seemingly happening regularly, it's still a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of companies doing morally grey stuff.

However, laws and independent bodies specifically created for the purpose of regulating industry and researching consumer effects are much better than people at finding out the broad effects of company practices. They are specifically reviewing and analysing company practices and making targeted recommendations on effective regulation.

For me, relying on consumer driven action is ineffective, it certainly should be a part of any society, but with the pace of society today, you can't rely on people to be able to have the time, information and energy to vote with their wallets - especially when it often hurts their wallet to do so. Governments and independent bodies have to lead the way with the support of people. I'm painfully aware of being privileged with the time and wealth to be able to vote with my wallet, but I think the majority of people have neither for most of these boycotts.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#367

Post by TheCoelacanth »

lenticular wrote: post #83
dhimes wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. They need to pay reimburse those workers with a penalty fee tacked on.

That's not necessarily true. Folks in the gig economy are often classed as "independent contractors" and thus are not subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act, including minimum wage laws. They also are not entitled to, nor almost ever receive, reimbursements for work expenses. When you are talking about using your own vehicle and paying for depreciation, mechanical work, and gas, this is considerable. It often winds…

This is absolutely illegal. They are defrauding customers. No one would voluntarily add money to an order if it was labeled as "donation to Instacart" instead of "tip". They are deceiving customers to get money from them.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#368

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

The tip economy SUCKS. When will it stop! Now it's part of the future that is being sold to us as the new nirvana. Why can't things change?

Employers love it since they can underpay. Some employees love it since they can make a very good living but that's a fraction of the total. But overall it creates an economy subclass that's constantly struggling. They have trouble paying the bills. It's tough work plus they have to deal with upset customers even though they likely had no control of the situation.

I'm a fan of a permanent surcharge on the bill rather than having to deal with giving a tip. Pizza delivery places have a delivery charge now plus a fuel surcharge, as far as I am concerned they can add a service charge too.

Yes, services will become more expensive. But over time an economic equilibrium begins to appear at which time we can reevaluate and change. But the last thing we need to do is bring it into the future.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#370

Post by Domenic_S »

function_seven wrote: post #76
gowld wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to what ruling? It depends on the agreement between Instacart and delivery staff.

The Fair Labor Standards Act disallows this type of agreement for ordinarily-tipped jobs. I don't know how the contractor status of Instacart drivers affects this. They're not technically employees. But the verbiage of "Tip" in the UI is a strong signal to the customer that the money is directly credited to the driver. It should bear no relation to their fee from Instacart. This is wage theft. A horrible agreement do…

The google term you want is "tip credit" -- it is common and legal federally and in most states to deduct tips from your hourly wage. Washington state is one of the few where tip credits are not legal.

This is a very common setup in other pay structures as well, such as commissioned sales where you are paid a "draw" (such as minimum wage) and you don't paid get any commission until your commissions exceed minimum wage.

What's more, the tip money did go directly to the driver; Instacart just decided to pay less.

It's a pretty inhumane thing to do but on the face of it I don't see how it's wage theft. Welcome to the gig economy.

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