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Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

workingwa.org

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Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#261
post #63

This is why the tipping system in the US is absurd. The whole "you must tip because they get paid peanuts" argument is a circular logic. How about making sure that the worker gets paid fairly by their employer and customers can then optionally tip for outstanding service?

That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job". It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale. Forcing people to tip to ensure people get paid enough money is a consequence of the system, not the reasoning why the system is implemented.

>That's not the logic behind the tipping system. It's, "tipping incentives employees to perform well because they'll make more money for doing a better job".

>It doesn't work that way either, but that's the rationale.

Indeed. The on the ground reality is that tipping does not serve this purpose. I don't know if it ever did, to be frank. Studies[0] generally show little to no correlation between performance and amount tipped.

And the reality is that tipping is the reason invoked in many state laws for paying restaurant workers less than minimum wage. Tipping is the reason they get paid poorly, and I always find it problematic that people invoke tipping as a way to help people, when it is the cause of their low wages. In those states, tipping is a big win for the restaurant owner. The customer pays more money out of his/her pocket, and the waiter often does not get much money.

Unlike others, though, I do not consider this wage theft (even at a moral level). We don't tip for many other services that we receive, and the problem of how those workers are compensated doesn't cross our mind. Why do we insist that tipping some category of workers has a moral component whereas others do not? Fixing those laws will be a challenge as long as tipping is commonplace.

[0] Example: https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...

(Taking off my pink hat)

(Yes, I do contribute to their poor wages by tipping. Have to conform somewhat to society!)

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#262

Seriously, this is the responsibility consumers have in a free market. If there's behavior you don't like, move on. You don't get to complain about bad actors when you're literally keeping them in business.

Can I ask - and this isn't just me being glib because I want to believe what you say is possible - but can I ask if you know of any consumer collective actions in the past decade that have succeeded?

Better yet - what percentage have succeeded?

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#263
post #253

German reader here. Because of minimum wage you'd only tip if service was good (or always tip if you have enough money, my parents generation are more frugal than I am). Delivery services often get around minimum wage because they use the "Uber" trick and technically the drivers are "self-employed", always tipping those folks. Anyway: Are tips taxable in the US? Here in Germany tips are tax-free under certain conditi…

Tips are taxable income in the US, even to the point where the IRS will assume a minimum amount of tip income, even if you didn't receive that much.

Here is an article about the Supreme Court case that upheld it.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/18/business/fi-tips18

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#264
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very people writing these workers’ paychecks are effectively making this argument.

The very people collected those checks are making those arguments, directly. Lets be honest, service staff prefer the way it is. They can prey on their customers, and they end up making more than they would if paid min wage.

Anecdotally, Montreal certainly has a tipping culture _and_ pays service staff the same minimum that everyone else is subject to. The restaurant prices aren’t any different from metros in the US. Really, there is no advantage to taking a lower wage to anyone but the restaurant owners issuing that wage.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#265
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry tweets about this before I forget about it and move on to the next thing to be upset about today.

GP is also tipping in cash, forcing instacart to pay the full boat and returning tip to its rightful place as additional (and untaxed!) income. Seems like a not-bad approach.

Where did you get the notion that tips are supposed to be untaxed income?

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#266
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very people writing these workers’ paychecks are effectively making this argument.

The very people collected those checks are making those arguments, directly. Lets be honest, service staff prefer the way it is. They can prey on their customers, and they end up making more than they would if paid min wage.

And it helps them dodge taxes.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will not matter. Washington state law does not apply. The sovereign state of Washington laws are superseded and invalidated by mandatory binding arbitration. The rights set out in the State of Washington's constitution do not apply, for they are superceded and ignored by mandatory binding arbitration. Any dispute will go to a monkey court instead.

Washington state law certainly does apply. The state did not sign a mandatory binding arbitration agreement. The employee/contractor may not have the right to bring suit against Instacart, but the state maintains that right. Thought experiment: could Instacart assault, kidnap, or murder a delivery driver and claim that arbitration is the only venue for redress?

And even then, the worker does have the right to petition the court to review the clause itself. So the worker can still sue with the knowledge that it will be thrown out if the judge decides to uphold the arbitration clause.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#268

Where's the outrage for the millions of service industry employees who also have to deal with this, and have been dealing with this for decades? Why's Instacart getting the unique bad press?

In part because they’ve added a layer of deception to the practice. In part—and I’m speculating here—because this is a young company, founded and run by people in (or nearly in) our cohort, and were disappointed in them as peers (albeit peers who struck it rich).

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#269

I am 100% in favor of tipping, and all of you people calling to ban it don't understand service jobs. Those doing so should be ashamed, as they are effectively victim-blaming in this context (in what really seems close to wage theft, at least in spirit, by Instacart) to push this cause. This is really much more a story of ethics in software development. Someone had to know they were doing the wrong thing when they wr…

>I am 100% in favor of tipping, and all of you people calling to ban it don't understand service jobs.

I used to live in Japan where the service is quite better than in the US and tipping is frowned upon. You honestly don't know good service if you think tipping is necessary.

And to those saying to tip in cash, note that a lot of the times those that receive tips in cash typically don't report it as earnings on their income taxes. This is why I never tip cash.

Restaurants and such really just need to up their prices and do away with tipping. The practice itself is inherently discriminatory/racist in that better looking people typically receive higher tips, women typically receive higher tips than men, Whites receive higher tips than Blacks. It's really a disgusting practice.

Re: Instacart paying 80 cents an hour because worker received a large tip

#270
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP is also tipping in cash, forcing instacart to pay the full boat and returning tip to its rightful place as additional (and untaxed!) income. Seems like a not-bad approach.

Where did you get the notion that tips are supposed to be untaxed income?

Have you ever seen anyone accurately report tips earned in cash?
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