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64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

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Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#171

Post by dev1n »

austincheney wrote: post #145
zmmmmm wrote: post #24

It's tragic and I wish younger devs could have even a small understanding of how pernicious this phenomenon is. No, you won't escape it because you're awesome, or because you love learning new things etc etc. I'm lucky: I switched into a role where deep domain experience is essential, I did a PhD, I'm one of the top experts in a growing field - I'm more or less insulated from this. Indeed, now I hire people and I'm a…

The presumption about the junior level role is accurate but for reasons different than what you are thinking. It’s less about the work and more about the people. Some junior developers have the potential to be great senior developers. They listen to mentorship and independently weigh decision criteria. Many juniors don’t have this potential and some shouldn’t even be there in the first place. The need for recognition…

When you put “sensitive people make me sad” In your HN profile it debases your point of view.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#172

Post by peterwwillis »

segmondy wrote: post #162
towaway1138 wrote: post #15

I'm only in my 50s, but this is very relateable. Did a couple dozen interviews a year or two ago before finally getting a bite. Somewhat amazingly, even passed the hiring committee at a FANG, only to get swatted down by a rare strike from the executive level. In one interview, was asked to produce a class that could serialize and deserialize a list of numbers, to/from a string of chars. Sure, it's not that hard. Took…

This defeatist attitude is what's going to make this come true for you. McDonald? really? How about consulting? Starting your own shit? Perhaps looking outside of the West Coast and other places you might be appreciated? How about the govt, schools, hospitals, banks, big ol boring enterprises? How about other countries? Seriously, you have option and everyone does. If you are smart enough to pass the hiring committee…

This unrealistic anti-pep-talk isn't helping anyone but yourself.

When you're actually painted into a corner in life, and really are facing a bad situation with no support whatsoever, you get defeatist. It happens. Human beings have feelings, and no amount of vapid self-actualization bullshit is going to make you stop feeling those feelings.

And sometimes there really aren't any other options. If you have no money, and nobody is hiring you, and you have bills to pay, and you have no money, you will have to accept a "lesser" job. This isn't "defeatist", it's real life. You can't wish yourself out of a bad situation. People often have to work hard, from the bottom, until they get a foothold, and then slowly, slowly work back up.

But it's still massively more difficult to do any of this when you're older, because nobody wants anything to do with you. You're the awkward old guy at networking events, in job interviews, virtually anywhere anyone can see or hear you. Nobody - govt, schools, hospitals, banks, enterprises - nobody wants to hire an old person.

Also - "starting your own shit" ? "other countries" ? How is somebody with no money, no contacts, and no collateral, supposed to pull those off? Just wander into a bank and bullshit your way into a loan? Corner some VCs at a cafe in the valley and win $50K off an elevator pitch?

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#173

Post by WaltPurvis »

zmmmmm wrote: post #24

It's tragic and I wish younger devs could have even a small understanding of how pernicious this phenomenon is. No, you won't escape it because you're awesome, or because you love learning new things etc etc. I'm lucky: I switched into a role where deep domain experience is essential, I did a PhD, I'm one of the top experts in a growing field - I'm more or less insulated from this. Indeed, now I hire people and I'm a…

>> a presumption that an experienced person will not be "happy" working in what they would perceive as a junior level role. That they would find another position and leave

I have never understood this line of thinking. How long will an inexperienced person, once they have gained a smidgen of experience, be happy in a "junior" level role?

Young people are naturally inclined to be scouting for bigger and better opportunities, while older folks are more likely to value stability and the quality of their work environment, and are usually encumbered in various ways that make them less able to quit a job and move at the drop of a hat.

I suppose there's a valid concern that older people won't be happy with a junior-level salary, but that's something that can be discussed, and many older people would be perfectly fine with a somewhat smaller salary (especially if the alternative is zero income or minimum wage).

At any rate, I would presume young people are more likely than older people to chafe at their role and jump to another company, and I wonder why so many have the opposite perception.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#174

Post by WaltPurvis »

pvaldes wrote: post #112

He knows where is the problem but does not use this knowledge to take a proactive stance. "yes I know that I'm old, BUT shouldn't be a problem for the job because... (I keep learning, update my skills often, can do X) ... etc, etc"

>>take a proactive stance

What would that entail?

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#175

Post by TomMckenny »

towaway1138 wrote: post #15

I'm only in my 50s, but this is very relateable. Did a couple dozen interviews a year or two ago before finally getting a bite. Somewhat amazingly, even passed the hiring committee at a FANG, only to get swatted down by a rare strike from the executive level. In one interview, was asked to produce a class that could serialize and deserialize a list of numbers, to/from a string of chars. Sure, it's not that hard. Took…

>swatted down by a rare strike from the executive level

Was this someone you spoke to in anyway? Or was there any rationale hinted at?

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#176

Post by rgbrenner »

sephoric wrote: post #66
towaway1138 wrote: post #15

I'm only in my 50s, but this is very relateable. Did a couple dozen interviews a year or two ago before finally getting a bite. Somewhat amazingly, even passed the hiring committee at a FANG, only to get swatted down by a rare strike from the executive level. In one interview, was asked to produce a class that could serialize and deserialize a list of numbers, to/from a string of chars. Sure, it's not that hard. Took…

We're at that point too. My solution is a combination of downsizing our life and making my own app business. So far the only app I released (Autumn) was a bust because I stupidly released it on New Year's Eve so practically nobody knew about it, also it's too niche. But everyone loves the quality, so I figure I'll just keep writing more apps. I've got a lot of ideas and a lot of energy. I may have to work at Walmart…

"So far the only app I released (Autumn) was a bust because I stupidly released it on New Year's Eve so practically nobody knew about it"

Virtually no businesses work like this. Maybe NY Eve wasn't the best date, and it's great if you get a boost from the announcement, but you need to follow up with marketing, continue talking to customers, sales, calling people, etc. Most users will not hear about your business from the initial announcement.

A lot of times when you see a business take off after an announcement, it's because they worked for months prior to build an audience. Sometimes that's the developers audience (if you have a lot of twitter/blog/etc followers), or it can be because you preannounced it, collected emails, and kept them engaged as it was being developed. You still need a game plan for after the announcement though.

Good luck... try not to get discouraged if it's not an immediate success. (Your other point, about it being too niche, can be a problem if that niche isn't valuable enough.)

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#177

Post by fecak »

Professional resume writer and career consultant here, approaching 50, and I’ve helped rehabilitate careers of many clients in similar situations. The line that caught my eye was his quote “I have been unemployed for a long time." I believe the stigma of extended unemployment is worse than ageism.

What I do is a mix of marketing (maximize assets, minimize liabilities, optimize everything), strategy for job search (beyond “spray and pray” resume broadcasting), and building confidence for interviews and the general approach. You have to believe you’ve earned a seat at the table.

There is always more to stories like this. Qualified candidates can overcome ageism with proper understanding of the market conditions.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#178

Post by democracy »

I also find it interesting as with the experience it is more difficult to answer certain interview questions. 10 years ago a question like "how do you make sure your code changes in production do not cause outages" wouldn't cause me any headaches but now I am getting stuck as this is something I can talk about for hours and I need to know the context and the details of it so I start thinking what the scope of my answer should be and what they want to hear from me in the next minute or two and that I probably have to squeeze my experience into this two minutes and it is hardly possible so what should I start with? While I am thinking about all this, it probably looks like I have nothing to say at all. It's sad :)

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#179

Post by opportune »

shadowbannedtoo wrote: post #17
maerF0x0 wrote: post #5

I feel for this guy. Ageism is completely real and mostly missing from D&I initiatives. However there is a 2nd lesson to be learned here. Why in the world does he not have any savings at 64? The article is scant on details, but does mention he was in the computer industry from his 20s, and raised his son, say, until roughly his 40s. That leaves 20 prime years of earning power w/o savings? Something is amiss. To me th…

Programming/computing wages weren't that great years ago. I guess there were a few corporate exceptions, like Microsoft, but so many Programmers/IT guys were not paid well, and there were no benefits. This is when companies were called companies, not Start-ups. When this current bubble of essentially free money ends, many of you will be in the same boat as this man. And it does seem like once you turn 50-55 you are c…

I don’t think it makes sense to make blanket statements like this. The best engineer I’ve ever worked with is probably in his high 50s/ low 60s and there is no way he will ever be let go considering how valuable he is to the org, not only because he has great output but also because he’s a really good mentor to younger developers.

As other people in this thread have mentioned I think the ageism is worst for those who arent standouts. But I imagine in almost all fields, you will have trouble as someone with 20+ years of experience getting a good job without being pretty good at the job at that point

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#180

Post by [deleted] »

RobLach wrote: post #141
burtonator wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. There is no such thing in the real world. That's absolutely untrue.. you really discredit yourself when you say provably false things like this.

I assume you’ve read the essay the term comes from https://www.worldcat.org/title/rise-of-the-meritocracy/oclc/... If not; it’s pretty fun.

[deleted]
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