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64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

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Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be, because different groups answer questions differently. One famous result ( http://web.pdx.edu/~mev/pdf/PS471_Readings_2012/Lizotte_Sidm... ) is that woman hold themselves to a higher threshold of certainty before claiming to know something. An interesting solution would be to score differently based on known biases; but that would be a can of worms in itself. Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged.…

> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. There is no such thing in the real world. That's absolutely untrue.. you really discredit yourself when you say provably false things like this.

I assume you’ve read the essay the term comes from

https://www.worldcat.org/title/rise-of-the-meritocracy/oclc/...

If not; it’s pretty fun.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#142
post #127
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out jobs with the federal government and/or with government contractors. The work might not be as sexy or as lucrative (although sometimes it is), but the pay is stable (lolol... shutdowns notwithstanding) at a middle-class level. The government is desperate for people who can code.

The last month should demonstrate that the government is a terrible steward of jobs. Shutdowns and dysfunction are on a bad trend. Half the board (Congress) won't talk to the other half, and the CEO (President) is a narcissist at best. I don't think anyone who relies on a paycheck should work for the government, unless God himself touched their heart with his finger and made that their calling. Although the man in th…

I don’t think the shutdowns are quite that bad yet (unless you’re a contractor). Everyone—except contractors—got back pay when the government re-opened.

A vouple months delayed pay can absolutely be devistating to someone at a certain income level, and I don’t want to discount the hardship the recent shutdown has caused. But, I imagine most people well-off enough to have a programming job wouldn’t have too many cash flow issues, given proper financial planning.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#144
post #7

Work-to-hire needs to be more prevalent. Start this guy off as a janitor so he can work his way up. No American feels above mopping floors, in case you, hiring manager, were unaware. Source: unemployed techie who gardens and moves in Silicon Valley, for people who would love to hire me if they had a computer job and is dodged by recruiters.

Janitors are no longer directly hired, they come through a service. It's the service that's hired, and workers with anonymous faces just show up.

There is no "work your way up" from those positions. Not anymore.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-risi...

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#145
post #24

It's tragic and I wish younger devs could have even a small understanding of how pernicious this phenomenon is. No, you won't escape it because you're awesome, or because you love learning new things etc etc. I'm lucky: I switched into a role where deep domain experience is essential, I did a PhD, I'm one of the top experts in a growing field - I'm more or less insulated from this. Indeed, now I hire people and I'm a…

The presumption about the junior level role is accurate but for reasons different than what you are thinking. It’s less about the work and more about the people.

Some junior developers have the potential to be great senior developers. They listen to mentorship and independently weigh decision criteria.

Many juniors don’t have this potential and some shouldn’t even be there in the first place. The need for recognition, entitlement, and fear of challenges are common behaviors that are anti-thetical to becoming a senior. In the extreme shitty juniors will become hostile when they feel threatened. It is easy to feel threatened when a good senior can output superior quality work in a fifth of the time.

Why would any competent person want to deal with that immaturity and insecurity? That kind of stupidity doesn’t just make me want to leave the job. It makes me want to abandon the career. You have to understand the senior person isn’t there to attack anybody or take anybodys job. They just don’t want to play the defensive survival games their peers may not realize they are playing.

If it weren’t for the people a junior role wouldn’t be so bad. A strong senior will find a way to shape it into something better, or will learn to manipulate things until large amounts of free time are exposed.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#147
post #127
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out jobs with the federal government and/or with government contractors. The work might not be as sexy or as lucrative (although sometimes it is), but the pay is stable (lolol... shutdowns notwithstanding) at a middle-class level. The government is desperate for people who can code.

The last month should demonstrate that the government is a terrible steward of jobs. Shutdowns and dysfunction are on a bad trend. Half the board (Congress) won't talk to the other half, and the CEO (President) is a narcissist at best. I don't think anyone who relies on a paycheck should work for the government, unless God himself touched their heart with his finger and made that their calling. Although the man in th…

most governments in the world don't have shutdowns like the US though. The US doesn't need to have them either.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#148

I have experienced this myself. I am going on 50. I am actually looking for work now. And I have kept up and I am using modern tech stacks. http://geoffreycallaghan.com

Minor nit: you may wish to use a higher resolution image in the banner. It looks a little blurry on desktop and mars an otherwise very attractive webpage.

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#149
Someone on HN recently recommended a book called Developer Hegemony and I'm a bit over a third of the way through it. If you're starting to approach the age where discrimination will become an issue, and you're of the opinion that you'd better start climbing the corporate ladder as high and fast as you can in order to avoid unemployment, I recommend reading at least the first 1/3 or so of this book. (I don't yet know what the remaining 2/3 is about.)

Re: 64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken seriously as a job applicant

#150
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it disturbing he can't find work as a project manager. If anything, that's one role where the practitioners typically know fuck-all about nothing and where good ones are worth their weight in gold. I LOVE to work with ADULT project managers who have a clue about how projects actually unfold and how things actually get done with a wide variety of personalities in the mix. Instead, more often than not, you get 2…

In today's world of agile development, I haven't met any project managers worthy of anything. I feel that strong product managers are capable of managing development as well. I can't believe there are actual people getting paid to move JIRA tickets around full-time.

It's unfortunate. Especially in agile, a good project (err.. product...) manager is worth their weight in gold. I have to be honest, I've had my hand slapped here on HN for conflating project managers with product managers. I admit that I do this because from an agile software development perspective you need a variety of skills.

One of the biggest problems I've seen on agile projects is a lack of analysis. Often "agile" development processes are chosen because people want to avoid analysis. I think the thinking is that if you remove all the documentation and discussion around what you are building, the developers will just "do the right thing" and you'll save a whack of time.

In fact, on the XP teams I've run, I tend to have 2-3 month backlogs of stories. You want to think through what you are building and what the implications are. There are 2 main differences between this and a more analysis-up-front approach. First, your stories are changeable and prone to re-ordering. Second, you defer some decisions until later. There is no phase when the requirements are carved into stone. However, if you get to the beginning of the sprint and you don't know what the acceptance criteria for all of the stories in the sprint are, then you are in big trouble.

Also, I come from the ancient days. I've personally written a 1300 page requirements document. That took 6 months to write. That was largely ignored. When I tell people that I want a couple of months out of "this is what we're doing if nothing changes", these days people think I've got all top heavy on them. Times change...

This is where a good project/product manager comes in handy. You need someone who owns the overall vision of what you are building and has time to think through the implications. You need someone who is constantly grooming the backlog and updating the cards as the vision changes. You need someone who understands the business priorities and knows when and how to reprioritise the backlog. You need someone who is constantly asking the question, "It's fine to do X, but what does that mean for Y", or "What makes you think that this is the solution we need" or "Who is going to be affected when we do X".

Often product/project managers think, "Oh I don't have to know how the product works in detail". This is a huge red flag for me. They often think "Oh the programmers can decide what to do here". Yes, the programmers can, but they already have their plate full with how to do what needs to get done. If you ask them to think through all the details of what and why then they will have less time for how. Similarly, if you have a team of 6-8 developers, then you will have 6-8 opinions about what the best thing to do is. The vision will potentially be weakened and you will often find that the programmers spend half their time arguing about who has the best idea. At best you'll have 1 developer doing the product/project manager's job and the rest will be doing programming jobs.

I could go on forever here. I haven't even touched on dealing with internal politics, reporting, ensuring visibility of problems, coordination with other groups, gathering data, etc, etc, etc. If you don't have someone doing these things then they are often not getting done at all (often to your detriment) or you are wasting your precious programming horse power dealing with the realities of business.

As you can imagine, I over the years I've regularly butted heads with "I don't really want to do anything at all" product/project managers. But if I get someone willing and able, I will absolutely load them down with work that has the potential to make a massive difference to everyone.

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