Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#441

Post by baddox » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:12 AM UTC

gotocake wrote: post #436

baddox wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the analysis is that difficult. Imagine that the interstates were only used for military transportation (both for emergencies, which presumably haven’t happened much, and for regular logistics). Surely the ongoing maintenance costs would be vastly reduced. Those costs would be the costs that “we the people” accept as valid usage of taxpayer money. You could throw in costs for other public interests like…

Practically speaking you’d be shifting the burden from the people who can afford it, to people who can’t. I see similar arguments from people who resent paying into social security and other things. It seems to be a combination of ideological convictions, lack of empathy, and unawareness of why these kind of measures were created in the first place. Ignoring all of rhe knock-on effects of a massive road network and i…

I’m not quite convinced that the effects would be so regressive, especially in the longer term. Couldn’t most national food transportation (including perishables like milk) be done with rail freight? Even if the retail costs stayed the same, surely the environmental costs would be drastically reduced (and surely the longer-term costs of climate change will be extremely regressive).

In other words, I question the premise that federal interstates reduce the cost of freight if you include the environmental externalities.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#442

Post by adrianN » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:17 AM UTC

Fins wrote: post #385

ndnxhs wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sums up most of the issues raised in this thread. Its not expected that everyone walk 40km to the shopping centre. Its expected that you don't go to a shopping centre that's 40km away and instead live close to what is important and shop locally.

And how do you propose to relocate all of these people to live in that urban paradise of yours, where they walk to anything and everything? Are you even going to ask them if they want to? Not everybody wants to live in a big city and values the same conveniences as you do.

In the same way you relocated them out of cities when cars became common. Slowly and over an extended period of time.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#443

Post by ip26 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:30 AM UTC

Buldak wrote: post #162

danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

This is important to consider, but even if anti-car policies inadvertently exclude some people, I'd push back against the presumption that they are more exclusionary than pro-car policies. They might still represent an improvement over the status quo in this regard. For instance, anti-car advocates often argue that policies which effectively require people to buy and maintain cars to participate in society are exclus…

Exclusionary of the elderly, too. What exactly do you do if you live in car-burg where the only way to get around is by automobile, and you lose your license due to declining faculties? You become totally stranded & alone.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#444

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:32 AM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #143

andys627 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - the argument is against the primacy and dominance of cars, not their existence in reasonable circumstances.

Going to the extreme is a good strategy to kill any debate. I am not sure if the GP intended this but I so often hear "Want to make changes to health care/ taxes/ others? Socialism! go to Venezuela!". Debate ended.

[deleted]

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#445

Post by alex_young » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:46 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #322

postscapes1 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My office is directly in view of all the handicap spots in a large commercial office buildings so watch this everyday. It is crazy how many people abuse the handicap parking permits. And then you see the people who really need it and would make a difference if they didn't get those very front spots taken up by these folks.

Please don’t be that guy. Manybhandixaps are not visually obvious.

Can confirm. Having a temporary handicapped tag enabled me to get to work when otherwise impossible when I had a broken pelvis. No cast, I could walk a very short distance, and I was a young looking guy driving an SUV in downtown SF. I probably looked like everyone's idea of the problem.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#446

Post by gotocake » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:48 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #441

gotocake wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practically speaking you’d be shifting the burden from the people who can afford it, to people who can’t. I see similar arguments from people who resent paying into social security and other things. It seems to be a combination of ideological convictions, lack of empathy, and unawareness of why these kind of measures were created in the first place. Ignoring all of rhe knock-on effects of a massive road network and i…

I’m not quite convinced that the effects would be so regressive, especially in the longer term. Couldn’t most national food transportation (including perishables like milk) be done with rail freight? Even if the retail costs stayed the same, surely the environmental costs would be drastically reduced (and surely the longer-term costs of climate change will be extremely regressive). In other words, I question the prem…

Ok, that’s a good question to raise, but maybe you should move beyond asking the question and try answering it. You could learn about how different shipping methods are used, how they interact, and just how extensive a rail network a country as massive as the US would require to replace roads. You could also consider that withnthe death of those roads, you’d be utterly snuffing out smaller rural communities, which would be too small or too distant from major population centers to justify a massive rail project.

All in all, if you have such a strong proposition about not paying for roads, it seems like you should already know these things. Now, could roads be replaced? Probably, at enormous cost both financial and environmental. Building massive rail networks is not quick or cheap, you’re talking about megatons or steel and iron being welded after all.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#447

Post by erkken » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 7:53 AM UTC

Fantastic. I also believe we are slaves to the cars, in such a way that we have become blind to the fact how they destroy our societies and people.

Most people are so used to the cars that they find it hard we would be happier without them, like my dad who grown up in the 50's with the mindset that every man should have a car. Not to mention all the developing countries with a middle class who see it as a step towards happiness (can't blame them though).

The car ia a great invention, and I love to drive them. Our family does not own a car, but rather a few bikes including a cargo bike which we use to do the shopping including Ikea visits.

It makes me cry a bit of happiness every time I read about this kind of initiatives.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#448

Post by kalleboo » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 8:17 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #274

yongjik wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unusual in America to find shopping centers where you have to drive, park your car, and then walk several hundred feet to actually enter the store, thanks to the enormous parking lot, because everybody has to park. So, I'm not exactly sure how much the car culture is actually working in your favor. The alternative (public transportation) means parking lots can be smaller and closer to the actual destination.

On bad days, I either avoid extremely large stores or wait until I get a good spot. On good days, I walk from whatever spot I get. Either way, it's less walking than I'd do to/from a transit station.

In some countries with well-developed public transport, transit stations ARE malls, or malls have their own train stop.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#449

Post by pertymcpert » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 8:37 AM UTC

gotocake wrote: post #141

tubbs wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile in so many ways. I get that you're speaking in anger and ignorance instead of reason, but this happening any time soon would spell so more problems than it would cause. Have you ever traveled outside of a population dense location? The automobile will go by…

If you’re not living in the Bay Area, this is not a conversation this comes up very much. People tend to love their cars, and the freedom it gives them, and frankly that doesn’t seem to be changing outside of some cities which were built in medieval times and suit walking better. A lot of “every thinking person believes X” topics you find here simply don’t exist on any significant scale outside of this bubble. My poi…

Uh, this comes up quite a bit in Europe too. You say the Bay Area is a bubble and yet you seem trapped in it all the same.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#450

Post by melling » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 8:38 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or one.

Seriously, we can come up with something other than 2 ton vehicles.

Hundreds of millions of people will live better lives if we can build our cities without needing cars.