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H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

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Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#141

Post by james_s_tayler »

an_cap wrote: post #120
addicted wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simple answer is that the US fought a war over the question of whether it can prioritize fellow whites and the pro side lost. Badly.

Might makes right. Got it. Edit : Sorry addicted, I interpreted your comment as a justification, not as historical account. My bad.

Might doesn't make morally right but it can make factually correct.

Two parties disagree and eventually one says to the other "if you don't stop it I'll make you stop it."

This is a truth claim that can be honestly verified through physical struggle. If they win, then their might did make them factually correct. If the other side was mightier than the other side proved themselves correct when they said "no you won't."

No?

Edit: human beings since forever have never stopped warring with each other over stuff. It's almost like our M.O. is Argumentum ad hominem, ad baculum, ad infinitum - "argument by beating a man with a stick for eternity"

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#142

Post by nphard85 »

briandear wrote: post #62
h1bslave wrote: post #15

I’ve been on h1b for over 7 years now , with no chance of getting a green card because I was born in India , all my immigrant friends who started working at the same time have already gotten their green cards - they all have the option to quit their jobs if they feel like they are being underpaid or exploited. But not me , I’m looking at 70 years before I get my freedom , until then I have to tolerate the indentured…

https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-nonimm... "Temporary (Nonimmigrant) Workers" And, now here are the immigrant, employment-based visas: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/immigrat... While I admire H1B's that have a goal of a green card, my sympathy for the argument is pretty low considering that an H1B was never intended as a path to citizenship. From the very first moment, there…

H1B is a "dual intent" visa.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#143

Post by m0zg »

an_cap wrote: post #119
diogenescynic wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very dumb straw man attack. Stop it.

How so? I claim that severe discrimination (like banning a group of people from entry level positions) based on circumstances of birth is ethically dubious. I think that's why we don't entertain the idea of banning people from entry level work because they were born to black parents. Why doesn't it generalize to being born to Indian parents?

Now would be a good time for dang to get involved.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#144

Post by m0zg »

diogenescynic wrote: post #125
an_cap wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I claim that severe discrimination (like banning a group of people from entry level positions) based on circumstances of birth is ethically dubious. I think that's why we don't entertain the idea of banning people from entry level work because they were born to black parents. Why doesn't it generalize to being born to Indian parents?

Because it’s intellecually dishonest and an argument based on the fallacy of appeal to extremes. There is obviously a difference between citizenship and race... the entire purpose of a government is to service its citizens. Unfortunately, we don’t live in a Star Trek utopia where there is free movement of all people. If one country were to allow this first, they’d just be harming themselves, which would be against th…

Don't feed the troll.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#145

Post by [deleted] »

untog wrote: post #71
baby wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a one-sided point of view. Imagine that you're immigrating to a country, and after a few years you get fire, or you want to take a sabbatical, or you want to change industry for a lower paying job. Now under your rules you cannot do that. What do you do? You've created your life in the US, you have friends, perhaps a girlfriend, maybe even a house. Now you have to leave?

(I say this as someone who lived in the US on a visa for years) That's part of the deal. Any immigrant arriving on a visa knows what they've signed up for, and it doesn't involve taking a sabbatical. It also really should not involve buying a house, if you're being sensible. Being fired 100% sucks, but you can transfer an H1B to a new employer. H1B is at least a dual intent visa, so after some years you can apply for…

[deleted]

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#146

Post by CalRobert »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #103
geofft wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a simpler proposal: anyone from anywhere can come here and take any job. If you leave your job, voluntarily or not, you have 90 days (up from the current grace period of 60 and strict rule of 0) to find another job. If you've been here for a few years you can apply for citizenship, independent of your employer. The primary objection to this is crowding out the labor market, to which I'd say: protectionism does…

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

Bummer, isn't it? I left the US because of its work culture (always working all the time, or trying to look like it) and now it's infecting Europe, or parts of it at least.

But that was without throngs of Americans moving here

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#147

Post by School-Cotton »

m0zg wrote: post #143
an_cap wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? I claim that severe discrimination (like banning a group of people from entry level positions) based on circumstances of birth is ethically dubious. I think that's why we don't entertain the idea of banning people from entry level work because they were born to black parents. Why doesn't it generalize to being born to Indian parents?

Now would be a good time for dang to get involved.

...why? Whether you agree with it or not, “people should have the right to relocate to other countries for work” doesn’t seem like an outrageously offensive or trolling opinion.

Why does it cause such an emotional reaction for you?

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#148

Post by mars4rp »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #103
geofft wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a simpler proposal: anyone from anywhere can come here and take any job. If you leave your job, voluntarily or not, you have 90 days (up from the current grace period of 60 and strict rule of 0) to find another job. If you've been here for a few years you can apply for citizenship, independent of your employer. The primary objection to this is crowding out the labor market, to which I'd say: protectionism does…

The primary objection to that idea is the complete destruction of your country's culture.

I bet native Americans of couple centuries ago agree with you.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#149

Post by htfy96 »

untog wrote: post #71
baby wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a one-sided point of view. Imagine that you're immigrating to a country, and after a few years you get fire, or you want to take a sabbatical, or you want to change industry for a lower paying job. Now under your rules you cannot do that. What do you do? You've created your life in the US, you have friends, perhaps a girlfriend, maybe even a house. Now you have to leave?

(I say this as someone who lived in the US on a visa for years) That's part of the deal. Any immigrant arriving on a visa knows what they've signed up for, and it doesn't involve taking a sabbatical. It also really should not involve buying a house, if you're being sensible. Being fired 100% sucks, but you can transfer an H1B to a new employer. H1B is at least a dual intent visa, so after some years you can apply for…

The real problem is the path from L1/OPT -> H1B -> green card is purely based on how many years you have worked in the US and performed as some kind of lottery. The transition may take at least 8 years, almost identical for highly-educated Top-N employees & questionably-legal "labors" from IT Consulting Companies (there are lots of fake identities/backgrounds in these companies' H1-B applications).

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#150

Post by vinay427 »

vowelless wrote: post #135
yholio wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like such a simple issue to fix: the only condition for getting a specialist visa should be to find an employer willing to pay a specialist salary, say above 150K. Doctors included, I see no reason to protect them from competition. Hop jobs at will but need to maintain within 85% of that level. If a company can't find workers, it should pay more up until a level that puts the competitiveness of the economy unde…

When I was on an h1b, I was making around 60k in the middle of the country, working for an amazing startup where we were ramen profitable. My skill set was highly specialized for the job. However, I couldn’t be a founder due to my visa status and we couldn’t pay each other even basic salaries. But we did some pretty amazing stuff for DARPA, DOD, and eventually some commercial enterprises. You would price out people l…

> ramen profitable

Off topic, but I hadn't heard this expression before so I looked it up and stumbled upon an interesting Paul Graham blog post derived from it: http://www.paulgraham.com/ramenprofitable.html

Thanks for introducing me to a new phrase!

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