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US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

bbc.com

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Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#581

Post by xtian »

scarmig wrote: post #573
xtian wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason you’d want to understand the intent behind the design of a software system before you modify it. Afterwards, though, you still go ahead and modify it to meet new requirements. Anyway, extending the franchise doesn’t really have anything to do with the prominence of the federal government, whereas the increasing power of corporations does.

Sure, but why do we hold the Founders in a particularly high regard? Instead of, say, countless 20th and 21st century politicians, scholars, and technocrats who have a lot more influence on the government as it exists today, most of whom who don't have views nearly as revolting as the Founders. Who's likely to be able to bring a software system from 16.7.1 to 16.7.2? The team who built 16.7.1, or the team who wrote t…

In many cases (including, I would argue, the current American political system), the people who wrote 16.7.1 are merely technicians without any coherent vision for long term purposes or principles. Why do we still talk about the Unix philosophy?

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#582

Post by xtian »

sangnoir wrote: post #572
xtian wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason you’d want to understand the intent behind the design of a software system before you modify it. Afterwards, though, you still go ahead and modify it to meet new requirements. Anyway, extending the franchise doesn’t really have anything to do with the prominence of the federal government, whereas the increasing power of corporations does.

The argument is that the modern software system has become so complex, worrying about what the intent of the original design is almost pointless. Say a single-user app that was originally written in assembly for PDP and has now evolved (or wrapped) into a multi-cluster, multi-zoned gRPC service - how important is the original intent when it was never designed for the current use case?

If you want to do good engineering work on a complex system, it's imperative to understand and remain laser-focused on what the system as a whole is actually trying to accomplish. The original intent is never irrelevant in that context. In fact, it's the foundation for evaluating all the subsequent decisions that resulted in "a multi-cluster, multi-zoned gRPC service".

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#583

Post by roywiggins »

jrwoodruff wrote: post #517
roywiggins wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American shutdowns were invented when someone realized that the Antideficiency Act probably prevents the government spending money if Congress failed to pass a budget. We could, if we wanted, amend that act to provide for an automatic continuance of funding, but we haven't. Deadlocks like this are definitely a feature of our system that Westminster-style systems resolve differently, but shutdowns are an artifact of a…

Yea, and if we did the continuance bit, we'd end up always running on automatic continuance funding, because that means all the politicians can continue to not do the hard work of negotiation and compromise. I like the 'triggers an election' thing. Puts the right pressure in the right place - if people in place can't get along and come to a reasonable compromise to keep the country working, then the people need a way…

The government runs on continuing resolutions when they can't decide on a real budget pretty often already. It's not great, but it's way better than parties being able to hold government workers hostage over policy priorities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_resolution#List_of_...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#584

Post by leereeves »

hannasanarion wrote: post #563
busterarm wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I commend you for being motivated but this doesn't match the actual facts. President Trump has not vetoed a single bill during his term of office thus far. Go look this up if you do not believe me. Please see spurcell93's sibling comment to yours in this thread.

No, he didn't, he called Paul Ryan and said "if you don't give me XYZ demands that Mitch McConnel wouldn't let me have I'll veto the bill and shut down the government" and then Ryan flopped around like a fish and then the shutdown started. It was still Trump's veto that started the whole thing, the fact that it was threatened instead of exercised makes no difference.

That's a complete fabrication.

Paul Ryan and the House passed a budget bill that included wall funding.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/20/678602214/senate-approves-tem...

The Senate failed to pass a compatible budget bill because Democrats refused to include any funding for a wall.

> Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, of New York, pledged to continue the discussions, but said it was clear there are not enough votes to pass a spending measure that includes funding for a wall along the nation’s southern border.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/12/21/gove...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#585

Post by leereeves »

hannasanarion wrote: post #402
busterarm wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it really is the finance department. Boards vote on the CEO and serve as his advisors and that is certainly not the correct metaphor. More importantly, Congress sets the budget through the House and Senate budget committees, which then draft and pass appropriations bills. This is the point in the process where we are stuck. The President is saying "bring me budget bills that have the things I want and I won't vet…

That is the point in the process where we are stuck now, but not where the sticking began a month ago. Trump had a perfectly good budget on his desk, written by his allies and passed by Republicans, and it even had wall funding in it, and he vetoed it because it wasn't enough. Then the government shut down. Then the Democrats took control.

You posted a similar fiction more than once so I'll post the same correction in both places.

The House passed a budget bill that included wall funding.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/20/678602214/senate-approves-tem...

It never reached the President's desk because the Senate failed to pass a compatible budget bill when Democrats refused to include any funding for a wall.

> Senate Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, of New York, pledged to continue the discussions, but said it was clear there are not enough votes to pass a spending measure that includes funding for a wall along the nation’s southern border.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/12/21/gove...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#586

Post by bryondowd »

MrMember wrote: post #357
yingw787 wrote: post #35

Even without the shutdown, the U.S. air traffic control system may experience greater strain in the years to come due to a generational deficit in the number of new air traffic controllers being trained and staffed: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathryncreedy/2016/01/28/contro... This may have been an issue with Reagan firing all members of PATCO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr... Whereas…

Anecdotal, but I've had several friends who went to school for air traffic control give up and find work in other industries because there weren't any openings for them in ATC.

I didn't go to school for it, but I did manage to apply for an opening, get through the initial screening, and go to the academy as a trainee. Washed out in the finals by a few points.

From what I saw of the entire process, the biggest issue they have is the strictness of their hiring process. It's very bureaucratic, in the interest of fairness, but also very harsh. They get tens of thousands of applicants, but only have enough throughput at the academy for a few thousand students per year, and they wash out around 50% of those students. Then more wash out at their respective facilities.

The kicker is that when they bring in current/retiring controllers to act as instructors at this academy, they put them through the same course, with the same final, and only about 2/3 of the instructor candidates pass. In other words, their program is so strict that a third of people actually doing the job couldn't qualify to even start the job at a trainee level.

I was told, while there, that the final exams simulate a level of traffic somewhere between a level 9 or 10 tower. Trainees who complete the academy get sent to towers below level 8, and have to succeed there before being able to transfer to a higher level tower.

If I gave them some benefit, I'd say the idea was to get the best of the best into the low level positions so that as many as possible would progress up to the top levels, but when they can't even fill their low levels because they are cutting half their hires at the academy, it seems like they might be overdoing it.

List of facilities and their levels, for those curious what kind of airport warrants a given level.

[1] https://123atc.com/facilities

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#587

Post by wonderwonder »

albertshin wrote: post #403
wonderwonder wrote: post #24

Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days / weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The FBI just cancelled its internship prog…

sorry, can you provide a link to the FBI cancelling their internship program? I can't seem to find anything to read on that.

Saw it on twitter, which upon consideration maybe should be taken with a grain of salt.

https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/10884530267827036...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#588

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

tomschlick wrote: post #413
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we get this please? I can think of a really great way to stop this shutdown by removal of one person in particular.

Honestly the last thing I want when we reach a budget impasse is for a full roster of rookie congressmen managing it. Thats ripe for abuse and you'd be getting rid of a lot of well seasoned people who know how to work around red tape to get things done and make deals.

I was thinking more the executive branch...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#589

Post by pjc50 »

naval-gazer wrote: post #172
wonderwonder wrote: post #24

Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days / weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The FBI just cancelled its internship prog…

In many states FBI has run out of replacement tires for vehicles, DNA swab kits, trace evidence filters. FBI can't pay for translator services, etc. They can't pay for informants.

Fortunately they managed to find volunteers to arrest Roger Stone, which may have been a factor in ending the shutdown..

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#590

Post by Cyph0n »

rootusrootus wrote: post #397
Cyph0n wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly doubt that any president would ever dare do that again. It took years for the US to recover...

How many times since early in 2017 have we collectively said something like "I highly doubt that any president would ever dare ..." only to find out that the current occupant of that position has no such qualms?

Touche.
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