Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#141

Post by gotocake » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

tubbs wrote: post #52

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

> I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile in so many ways. I get that you're speaking in anger and ignorance instead of reason, but this happening any time soon would spell so more problems than it would cause. Have you ever traveled outside of a population dense location? The automobile will go by…

If you’re not living in the Bay Area, this is not a conversation this comes up very much. People tend to love their cars, and the freedom it gives them, and frankly that doesn’t seem to be changing outside of some cities which were built in medieval times and suit walking better. A lot of “every thinking person believes X” topics you find here simply don’t exist on any significant scale outside of this bubble.

My point being, for armchair futurists who predict the death of the automobile, it tends to be a serious passion. Arguing with these people tends to be fruitless, because more than anything they want to preach. I try to avoid it myself, because right or wrong, desirable or undesirable, there is way too much money to be made selling cars for the business model to fall, short of being confronted with a superior replacement (a la cars vs. horses).

There are more productive uses of limited lifespans than... this.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#142

Post by dsfyu404ed » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

xwvvvvwx wrote: post #76

8ytecoder wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market st is already a no-go for private cars for many blocks. As much as I hate the scooters that go around in the sidewalks and then park haphazardly blocking the path for disabled people, they did reduce the traffic around Bart stations quite a bit. If it's easy to use the alternative, people do take it. There are a few who'd never leave their precious cars but most others care about the commute and not necessaril…

You are literally describing a soviet style centrally planned economy. Society should be organised bottom up and decentralised. Communities and regions need more autonomy. Decision making power belongs at the edges, with those who have the most context. Bazar significantly outcompetes cathedral at scale.

I don't think the people down-voting you realize that if (US) society put more authority locally (city > state > federal) the car-free cities they want would be closer to reality. Cities would have more power to impose tolls and restrictions on cars. If cities relied less on the state for their transit budgets they could more easily do as they please, same goes at the state level (the federal .gov is known to hold transit budgets hostage over unrelated things). The overhead of always having to deal with the next level of government is a big hindrance when it comes to changing the status quo.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#143

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

andys627 wrote: post #137

maxxxxx wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am perfectly fine to give people with medical issues an exception. But that doesn't mean that we should build everything around cars. Cars also cause a lot of health issues which should also be accounted for.

Yes - the argument is against the primacy and dominance of cars, not their existence in reasonable circumstances.

Going to the extreme is a good strategy to kill any debate. I am not sure if the GP intended this but I so often hear "Want to make changes to health care/ taxes/ others? Socialism! go to Venezuela!". Debate ended.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#144

Post by coding123 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

afiori wrote: post #60

coding123 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crowbars don't need marketing if it's the go-to tool for break ins. The analogy works because it would be like charging $8k for crowbars or having a crowbar property tax that is insanely expensive per year as a way to combat break ins. That doesn't work because people will find a way to break in without crowbars. People will find ways to buy gas at far less than a $1 a mile if you simply raised gas prices (i.e buy te…

wait, that is not the point... crowbars have legitimate uses (the fact that they look like they are designed to feel scary and dangerous does not change that). Should there exist special crowbar licences? > People will find ways to buy gas at far less than a $1 a mile if you simply raised gas prices (i.e buy teslas) gilets jaunes disagree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_vests_movement

I am agreeing with you, lol - it's an analogy that simply raising gas prices to fix the problem is like simply raising the price or taxing the crowbar to solve break-ins - it does not work.

Yes I definitely think the yellow vests would similarly be upset as well - again it's not solving the issue.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#145

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #92

_zskd wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this so much. I am sick and tired of subsidizing drivers. I am done with the irresponsible and unsustainable policy of ignoring costs associated with road maintenance in the United States. I am done with building roads through lower-class neighborhoods and damaging their property values. End welfare for drivers. Make the drivers pay their own way.

I strongly agree. Also let's end welfare for upper middle class commuters by ending subsidies for rail transit. Here in D.C., taxpayers subsidize Metro commuters, who are typically white collar and make more than the average taxpayer in DC/MD/VA. Why would you expect anything else, given the stratospheric price of housing near Metro stations? Low-income people take the bus. That's what we should subsidize.

[deleted]

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#146

Post by crowdpleaser » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could.

I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance car.

Heck, I even took it to Los Angeles and back over the New Year's and I was surprised at how comfortable I was for the entire trip despite doing ~90 mph in 45 degree weather. In particular, my back would be uncomfortable if I had spent 6 hours in the car, but 6 hours on the bike was great.

It's just so cool that a machine that works so well in congested cities can also work so well on the open road. It's not like driving a large sedan or SUV - where the open road is a joy but city driving is terrible. If we could just get 25% of people out of cars and into motorcycles, we could reduce congestion dramatically - https://newatlas.com/motorcycles-reduce-congestion/21420/

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#147

Post by dbdjfjrjvebd » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

calcifer wrote: post #93

Kjeldahl wrote: post #30

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

> It doesn't look quite as good with 5-6 shopping bags with groceries for the kids. Here in the Netherlands people seem to have no problems doing exactly that on a bike. Is Oslo any significantly different than, say, Amsterdam? Last week we had all sorts of harsh whether (sub-zero temps, heavy rain, snow) during my morning commute, which didn't seem to affect bike traffic one bit. > Parents in Norway also spend a lot…

There is snow and ice on the ground continuously for about 6 months of the year. Rain in winter here is rare and when it does happen it is often undercooled i.e. it freezes on contact with the ground. The climate in Amsterdam is not even close to comparable. Cycling on ice is totally different to cycling on a couple of cm of fresh snow.

Oslo has very steep hills. I know people that climb 100's of meters per day during their cycle commute.

So yeah very different.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#148

Post by lamp_book » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #82

lamp_book wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, even from the costs we can easily calculate it's obviously a massive drag on our economy, let alone the negative (in my opinion) effects on our culture. I think future generations will look on this America like we look at Easter Island now - a sort of inexplicable squandering of wealth and resources.

I think that if you do the same calculation to find the benefits (access to a greater variety of goods and services, access to a broader selection of employment, stable childhood environment due to not having to frequently move for work, etc.), the cost might not be as high. However, I have not seen any paper that attempted to account for this, so I cannot be sure.

You're right, there is this other side to the coin. I'm also not aware of research studying these high order effects. I wonder if you could apply the approach from the book Growing Artificial Societies, which is basically generative modeling of social organization, but I don't think that approach has a lot of academic support.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#149

Post by abdullahkhalids » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:45 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

From the article

> A few spots are left, converted into parking for disabled drivers or EV charging, and some streets are open for delivery trucks for a couple of hours in the morning. Emergency vehicles still have access.

Nobody who has thought about this issue for a bit is suggesting that we ban cars like we banned chemical weapons. Simply that the number of cars can be cut by a factor of 5-10 easily, leaving behind only those users who actually need the car, and not using it as a convenience at enormous unaccountable externalities.

Not to mention that the the health of many (but not all) is destroyed by absolute minimum exercise needed in car centric cities. When everyone starts walking 5-10K steps everyday, many mobility related ailments are avoided or controlled or managed sufficiently.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#150

Post by andys627 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #2

I seriously think that San Francisco can benefit from this. Each zone in SF is actually very small - and very walkable. In my extreme SF transport utopia - SF would only allow pedestrians, bikes, and electric muni transport in certain regions of the city.

I think woonerfs would work well in SF and elsewhere. Cars are allowed, but they have the share the space with pedestrians and bikes. Speed limit is super slow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

Would be sweet to see signs that say "woonerf" all over the US too.