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Oslo made its city center basically car-free

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#91
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

This. So much this. Most supporters of anti-automobile policies think that everyone is a healthy young adult grabbing his latte on the way to his Scrum daily meeting. No responsibilities with dependents, such as children, elderly or disabled family members. No plantar fasciitis, lordosis, arthritis, etc. Grow up. Start seeing the world from the perspective of others.

Car-centric planning is horrible for children, the elderly, disabled people, sick people, and the poor.

It makes them heavily dependent on able-bodied drivers (family members, taxis, hired helpers, ...) to move about.

Children are much more independently mobile in cities with good transit. In car-centric suburbs parents or other caretakers are responsible for personally carting their children from place to place, with huge negative impact on children’s quality of life. Children end up sheltered, over-scheduled, over-controlled, and dramatically delayed in learning to live for themselves.

It is for good reason that many college campuses and retirement homes are organized as little self-contained car-free villages.

In my opinion car-centric suburbs are optimized for healthy, wealthy 30–50 year-old full-time workers, and increasingly hostile as people get further from matching that.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#92
post #80

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I agree with this so much. I am sick and tired of subsidizing drivers. I am done with the irresponsible and unsustainable policy of ignoring costs associated with road maintenance in the United States. I am done with building roads through lower-class neighborhoods and damaging their property values. End welfare for drivers. Make the drivers pay their own way.

I strongly agree. Also let's end welfare for upper middle class commuters by ending subsidies for rail transit. Here in D.C., taxpayers subsidize Metro commuters, who are typically white collar and make more than the average taxpayer in DC/MD/VA. Why would you expect anything else, given the stratospheric price of housing near Metro stations?

Low-income people take the bus. That's what we should subsidize.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#93

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

> It doesn't look quite as good with 5-6 shopping bags with groceries for the kids.

Here in the Netherlands people seem to have no problems doing exactly that on a bike. Is Oslo any significantly different than, say, Amsterdam? Last week we had all sorts of harsh whether (sub-zero temps, heavy rain, snow) during my morning commute, which didn't seem to affect bike traffic one bit.

> Parents in Norway also spend a lot of time caring for their children

The subtext being if you are against cars you are a bad parent?

> which includes driving them around to various activities

No, parenting includes taking them to places, not driving.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#94
post #26

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

How do you propose getting around quickly in car-free city centers? Electric scooter services? I was in NYC the other day, and it was like 1 am and we were several blocks northwest of Times' Square, it was freezing and raining and public transportation was on late night service which would have required 20+ minutes of waiting around shivering for a bus, or a long-ish walk to the nearest subway station and another lon…

(Electric-)bicycles are usually the quickest way to get around in a city.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#95
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market st is already a no-go for private cars for many blocks. As much as I hate the scooters that go around in the sidewalks and then park haphazardly blocking the path for disabled people, they did reduce the traffic around Bart stations quite a bit. If it's easy to use the alternative, people do take it. There are a few who'd never leave their precious cars but most others care about the commute and not necessaril…

Why should public transit be paid for by automobiles? Let the users of each service pay for what they consume. Cars pay for roads, maintenance, highway patrol, etc. Public transit users pay for rail, buses, dedicated lanes, etc. Forcing automobile users to pay for public transit obscures the true societal cost of implementing public transit just as much as using tax revenues outside of gas/license taxes for roads obs…

>Why should public transit be paid for by automobiles? Let the users of each service pay for what they consume.

Why should anyone pay for anything they don't use? I understand this is a fairly common position to take in general, but this situation is not unique to public transit.

Regardless, true cost of driving private cars is already obscured beyond just for road construction and maintenance. Free or subsidized municipal on-street parking, below market rates, is one big example.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#96
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could get on board with $1/mile. I bet it would really ease up congestion on the roads and my commute would be more pleasant.

Ah yes, only the rich should be able to drive!

That's already the system in place, at least in the U.S.. Being properly insured isn't cheap. That you then have additional cost because 50% of the driving population isn't properly insured is an extra sting.

This is exacerbated by health care costs; state minimums coverages haven't followed increased costs; realistically, if more than 2 people get injured in any given automobile accident, 50% of drivers face bankruptcy.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#97

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

The problem is that this anti-car sentiment only works in dense urban areas. Many millions of Americans are a 20+ minute drive from work with absolutely zero options for public transportation.

> Cities existed without cars

Yeah, and if you ever had to leave the city, it was a multi-day dangerous journey by horse-back to get anywhere.

Again, there is an argument to reduce cars in big, dense cities. But making driving cost $1/mile would cause irreprable harm to the lower-middle and lower class who have to drive many miles to thier minimum wage job.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#98
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually not such a bad idea. If only the rich can drive then only the rich can commute. The city itself then becomes a haven for the middle class.

Ever lived any where that's not a major city in the US? It is common here in Michigan to drive 20 miles to work.

Average across the US is 16 miles, so it would essentially be asking people to pay an extra $700/month or so. Kinda like an instant 25% pay cut. Definitely would suck, but I bet a lot of people would make it work, and it would reduce congestion pretty dramatically.

It would also be political suicide, but this whole subtopic is a theoretical discussion anyway.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#99

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

While I think it's easy to get on board mentally picturing a landscape without cars in most cities - what are we saying, that only young people that can walk or ride bikes are allowed?

Would this future of yours have any consideration for the accessibility challenged or elderly people?

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#100
We need to end socialism for cars, but I think this way of going about it is probably counterproductive.

Here in Amsterdam we also have an increase in car-free zones, but one effect of that is just to increase car parking pressure in the neighborhoods of those of us who live adjacent to the center.

I think the real solution is to end socialism for cars. This problem will solve itself as soon as the land being used by parking spaces isn't specifically zoned, and thus would need to compete price-wise with using the same amount of land for residential developments or shops.

It's also interesting to see how this breaks down as a political issue. E.g. in Amsterdam the generally free market party (VVD) has a notable break from their "their market will take care of it" policy of wanting more government-subsidized car parking, v.s. the leftist parties.

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