Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#31

Post by hjnilsson » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

squidbot wrote: post #18

samstave wrote: post #2

I seriously think that San Francisco can benefit from this. Each zone in SF is actually very small - and very walkable. In my extreme SF transport utopia - SF would only allow pedestrians, bikes, and electric muni transport in certain regions of the city.

The biggest issue with bikes and walking in SF (as well as Seattle) is the hills. Oslo is relatively flat, as are other very bike centered cities like Amsterdam. Mind you, the rise of electric bikes is helping a lot, but it seems like hilly cities would only be able to get rid of cars if they replaced them with better, efficient, clean public transit. And it doesn't have to be just buses. Seattle, where they exist, e…

To call Oslo flat is a great understatment. Parts of the city are located with 1000ft+ height differences. Just the very center is the flat part. Oslo is very different from Copenhagen or Amsterdam in this regard. It’s probably quite close to Seattle in elevation change considering relatively few people live in the flat parts.

http://en-gb.topographic-map.com/places/Oslo-1311779/

http://en-gb.topographic-map.com/places/San-Francisco-353207...

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#32

Post by themagician » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #26

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

How do you propose getting around quickly in car-free city centers? Electric scooter services? I was in NYC the other day, and it was like 1 am and we were several blocks northwest of Times' Square, it was freezing and raining and public transportation was on late night service which would have required 20+ minutes of waiting around shivering for a bus, or a long-ish walk to the nearest subway station and another lon…

Walking. That’s how you get around quickly. It’s quicker to walk in downtown SF than take a car for a good portion of the day.

Also maybe you don’t need to get around so quickly. That’s kind of my point about how much damage the car has done to society.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#33

Post by mschuetz » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

close04 wrote: post #20

mschuetz wrote: post #16

Vienna also turned one of its biggest shopping streets into a mostly pedestrian zone a few years ago. The results are great, the only issue is that two thirds of it are shared spaces where cars are still allowed to drive, albeit witout priority over pedestrians. Mostly because some parties vehemently fought against pedestrian areas, claiming businesses will lose customers and shops will have to close. Turns out, ther…

Keep in mind that some infrastructure has to stay in place to allow for things like supply vehicles or emergency services. The "losing business because you can't park right in front of it" is BS in most big western European city centers where you either go to a paid parking or to a spot on the street 10-15 minutes away from your intended destination sometimes.

> Keep in mind that some infrastructure has to stay in place to allow for things like supply vehicles or emergency services.

There are designated time slots for suply vehicles in the core pedestrian zone, and the pedestrian friendly streets support these without issue. The two outer zones are the shared spaces where cars may drive at any time, which is a mistake in my opinion. Should be the same as the center. Pedestrian only, except for designated time slots for supply vehicles.

> The "losing business because you can't park right in front of it" is BS in most big western European city centers where you either go to a paid parking or to a spot on the street 10-15 minutes away from your intended destination sometimes.

Yes, that argument appeared often and it never made sense because there never was any available parking space before, except for nearby parking houses that are still available. So pretty much nothing changed, except that some neighbours lost a few parking spaces.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#34

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I could get on board with $1/mile. I bet it would really ease up congestion on the roads and my commute would be more pleasant.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#35

Post by lamp_book » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

Agreed, even from the costs we can easily calculate it's obviously a massive drag on our economy, let alone the negative (in my opinion) effects on our culture. I think future generations will look on this America like we look at Easter Island now - a sort of inexplicable squandering of wealth and resources.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#36

Post by ip26 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

atonse wrote: post #29

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I can see the appeal of congestion fees now that seamless tolls are so easy to collect (using RFID, License Plate Readers, etc). But apart from that, just needlessly taxing gasoline everywhere seems silly when you're trying to just reduce congestion in cities.

If anything taxing gasoline favors city trips, vs highway trips.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#37

Post by kstenerud » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #7

kstenerud wrote: post #5

Huh. I didn't realize Oslo hadn't done this yet. All (or most) European City centers are car free.

> All (or most) European City centers are car free. I don't know how someone can say something so obviously and demonstrably false with a straight face.

Easy. I write based on what I've observed.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#38

Post by karmelapple » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:01 PM UTC

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I don’t know if research exists for this, but I wonder how much of the influence of people moving from rural or suburban areas in the USA to urban areas in the USA contributes to additional cars in US cities.

I grew up in a suburban area, and even though I live in a dense city now, having a car still seems mandatory to me somewhere deep in my brain, even though I know I could now get by with the occasional zipcar.

Suburban areas typically require a car since public transportation is nonexistent, and growing up in an environment for 20 years sure can condition someone’s preferences.

I wonder how many people truly like driving? And where’s the line lie between “I am willing to drive” and “I am willing to not drive” ?

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#39

Post by themagician » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:01 PM UTC

leesec wrote: post #28

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

Lol yeah, incredibly unfortunate you have much more access to fast and often luxurious personalized transit than anytime in history. Also you really want gas to be a dollar a mile and make all of your things expensive? This whole comment is ridiculous to me.

Yeah, I think it is unfortunate. I think it’s unfortunate how it’s shaped our lives. I don’t want fast and luxurious personalized travel. I want to be able to walk somewhere nearby and enjoy it.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#40

Post by jononor » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:01 PM UTC

hkon wrote: post #14

What's interesting is that almost all traffic in eastern Norway goes through the city. Instead of having the highways go around it, they go through it. So while the city center is "car free", there is still alot of traffic and pollution.

The highway from from east to west straight though Oslo center is underground since som years now. If you ever go to the Oslo Opera, the highway is below you somewhere.

To call Oslo car free is an oversimplification, but the efforts and results over the last 15 years are tremendous.