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US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

bbc.com

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Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#521

Post by leereeves »

mike10010100 wrote: post #512
leereeves wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't really required to work [without pay]. They're allowed to quit. They're just required to work [without being paid immediately] if they want to keep the job, with the promise that they'll be paid later. Edit: Except for the Coast Guard, for whom the current situation really sucks.

> They aren't really required to work. They're allowed to quit. They're just required to work if they want to keep the job I'm not really required to breathe, but if I don't, I'll stop living. So...yeah...that's what's known as a requirement.

Obviously I meant "work at that job" as in "work without pay", but I'll edit my post to make that clear.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#522

Post by bargl »

scarmig wrote: post #127
jazzyk wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work, eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

There's at least two classes of employees here: 1) essentials, who are required to work and will indeed likely be repaid 2) non-essentials, who are not allowed to work and will not be repaid. They've effectively been forced into an unplanned month-long+ leave of absence. To be honest I feel worse for this group, though it sucks for everyone. ETA: this is inaccurate, was thinking of contractors. Though I do wonder how…

I can jump in here as I've been a contractor, my wife is still a contractor and back-pay for contractors doesn't typically happen (Tim Kaine I believe introduced a bill including contractors). It could but it probably wont.

On the flip side, different contracting agencies handle things differently. Some will let you take Leave and go in the hole while others will subsidies the shutdown for you.

As always it's complicated, but it's a good assumption that someone in the contracting chain is losing money.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#523

Post by dragonwriter »

_djo_ wrote: post #80
jazzyk wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work, eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees.

> None of the contractors will be paid, as I understand it, only permanent federal employees.

There's no reason Congress couldn't include back pay under some formula for contractors or employees of contracting firms who lost money due to the shutdown, but historically they have not done so (but, again, this is already the longest-ever shutdown and it may be so by much moreso than it already is, so it wouldn't be entirely inconceivable for Congress to decide extraordinary measures were warranted to address it's impacts.)

Conversely, Congress is not obligated to issue full back pay to furloughed federal employees, though it has in past shutdowns; it may also not be required to do so for those forced to work during the shutdown (though, again, it always has); though because FLSA applies to most federal employees those covered employees are definitely entitled to at least federal minimum wage for the time they were ordered to work. While it seems less likely, the extreme length of the shutdown could lead a particularly stingy Congress to decide back pay beyond what is minimally required is unaffordable.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#524

Post by czbond »

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #515
czbond wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is that it isn't understood that people make different lifestyle and economic decisions and we all pay for our decisions somehow no matter what they are; The sensationalism, victimization blaming, and "woe is me" that a small minority and media raise. No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses. It is a "take the lump, become stronger, make a plan for now and later, a…

> No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses. According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, of which the USA is a signatory, they do. Namely: Article 22. Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State,…

I think we were tripping up over my use of "entitle" - which I simply mean as not required to receive, without first giving. So, for example, because I exist does not simply mean I am owed a job, owed income, etc. I'm getting off topic a bit from my original intent, however.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#525

Post by dragontamer »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #518
dragontamer wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues That's called a continuing resolution. And in the USA, Trump defeated it December 2018. They don't want a continuing resolution, so it doesn't happen. Its about that simple. Lawmakers can write the law however they want. Why would the Republicans decide to shoot down the CR this time? Politics. To…

Yeah. You've got short-sighted "warriors" on both sides, trying to score cheap political points while the country burns (mostly figuratively, so far). Can states do recall elections? Because maybe that's the answer. If all 50 states held recall elections for all Senators and Representatives, that might concentrate minds in DC a bit...

It doesn't matter how bad the individual politicians are.

There's one side that is clearly in the right. There is only ONE side which is pushing for a clean continuing resolution, to end the shutdown.

The other side is asking for concessions before they end the shutdown.

Obviously politicians are opportunistic scumbags. That's why we elect them to represent our districts, so that they return more money to our district. That's the design of the system. You have to look beyond that and focus on which side is actually pushing the correct morals (which changes from debate to debate).

It is clear which side is pushing to end the shutdown with no gains to either side, and it is clear which side is asking for a $5.7 Billion Wall before the shutdown ends.

----------

Politicians will be scumbags for now, and probably for the future. Its our job as citizens to form opinions about their behavior.

> Can states do recall elections? Because maybe that's the answer. If all 50 states held recall elections for all Senators and Representatives, that might concentrate minds in DC a bit...

We literally just had an election like 4 months ago. The new Congress literally just entered DC this month. Every House Member was up for re-election.

This is what the country voted for. Face the facts, this is Democracy at work.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#526

Post by inferiorhuman »

leereeves wrote: post #492
UncleMeat wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is entitled to a job. But if you work you are entitled to pay. The truly egregious thing here is all the people that are required to work without pay, preventing them from getting a different job.

They aren't really required to work [without pay]. They're allowed to quit. They're just required to work [without being paid immediately] if they want to keep the job, with the promise that they'll be paid later. Edit: Except for the Coast Guard, for whom the current situation really sucks.

Coast Guard aside, various federal employees are prohibited from having second jobs or looking for other work.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#527

Post by snarf21 »

howlingfantods wrote: post #182
wonderwonder wrote: post #24

Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days / weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The FBI just cancelled its internship prog…

On one hand, I understand Ross’ reasoning. If my company were to go to a bank with a federal guarantee, we’d get a very cheap loan. On the other hand, he thinks an average individual’s response to missing paychecks should be to seek a low interest loan against a government guarantee. That’s comically out of touch. I’ve been working in finance my entire life and I’d have a tough time working through the loan applicati…

Right, take a loan out against all his holdings to pay the people. Definitely a 'pull the ladder up behind you' guy.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#528

Post by tengbretson »

morpheuskafka wrote: post #455
tengbretson wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we just call it bad without lying about what it actually is?

It's not lying. People are being called to perform highly valuable full time work without any pay. This work is involuntary, because regular employees would be terminated and lose competitive status (adverse government action), and Coast Guard employees (who are paid by DHS not DoD) would face UCMJ charges for not working involuntarily without pay.

> This work is involuntary, because regular employees would be terminated

Being fired for not doing your job is not evidence of slavery. It's just called "normal."

Furthermore, I'm going to assume that you know the difference between "without pay" and deferred pay. If you know the difference and still choose to blur the lines intentionally I can only assume that you are lying as well.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#529

Post by closeparen »

tibbon wrote: post #56
wonderwonder wrote: post #24

Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days / weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The FBI just cancelled its internship prog…

I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings in the bank then it's just their fault". It's really sad that instead of being compassionate, too many are focusing on what "should" be instead of what is the reality for many people. Like you point out, the reality is that most people don't have savings. They shoul…

That people drawing their livelihoods from the public sector should be allowed to continue doing so is itself a controversial political position. The size of government is a campaign issue and a key difference between the parties every election cycle.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#530

Post by ceejayoz »

thedaemon wrote: post #495
ceejayoz wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then we've diluted the term "slavery" enough that it's no longer usable in a reasonable discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery Wage slavery is a very old term. Please do your research before making such bold statements.

It's a very old term because labor conditions used to be a lot closer to actual slavery.

It's a very silly thing to compare "I have to work a shitty job at Walmart to make rent" to actual slaves being raped, whipped, having their kids sold, etc. while working in the cotton fields until they died.

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