US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#511

Post by cr1895 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

benj111 wrote: post #378

whorleater wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air traffic controllers are essential to life, which is why they are asked to go to work currently. Not getting paid is a different question entirely.

Oh ok, I understood your link to mean payment was allowed where essential. Aren't some people getting paid? aren't they deemed essential?!? Am I looking for sense where there isn't any?!

To add to the other comment, for example the Patent Office is self-funded and they're currently working and getting paid.

But, absurdly, they might have to stop soon because even though they're self-funded Congress must allocate their funding.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/426904-patent-of...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#512

Post by mike10010100 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #492

UncleMeat wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is entitled to a job. But if you work you are entitled to pay. The truly egregious thing here is all the people that are required to work without pay, preventing them from getting a different job.

They aren't really required to work [without pay]. They're allowed to quit. They're just required to work [without being paid immediately] if they want to keep the job, with the promise that they'll be paid later. Edit: Except for the Coast Guard, for whom the current situation really sucks.

> They aren't really required to work. They're allowed to quit. They're just required to work if they want to keep the job

I'm not really required to breathe, but if I don't, I'll stop living.

So...yeah...that's what's known as a requirement.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#513

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

zentiggr wrote: post #452

tomschlick wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the last thing I want when we reach a budget impasse is for a full roster of rookie congressmen managing it. Thats ripe for abuse and you'd be getting rid of a lot of well seasoned people who know how to work around red tape to get things done and make deals.

For a well meant opposing viewpoint, flushing longer term congresspeople could mean the breaking of many lobbyist ties, shadow coalitions, and other impediments to reasonable progress. I've proposed before that campaign contribution amounts be publicized, and let people vote out the ones who have been too heavily 'bought'.

> flushing longer term congresspeople could mean the breaking of many lobbyist ties, shadow coalitions, and other impediments to reasonable progress.

You think lobbyists and interests groups having all the people experienced with legislation while members of Congress are all neophytes that get booted out after a handful of years (and then with job experience most relevant to legislating, which they can't do any more, and lobbying...so what is it they are going to be setting tthemselves up to do afterwards?) is going to make things better?

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#514

Post by seem_2211 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #56

wonderwonder wrote: post #24

Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days / weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The FBI just cancelled its internship prog…

I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings in the bank then it's just their fault". It's really sad that instead of being compassionate, too many are focusing on what "should" be instead of what is the reality for many people. Like you point out, the reality is that most people don't have savings. They shoul…

Completely agree with you. Yes you should have savings for six months or whatever that may be, but just because you should, doesn't make it right for you to engineer a situation where you put everyone who didn't into an extremely difficult situation.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#515

Post by TelmoMenezes » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #282

fiveoak wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people have a hard time showing empathy for others. Part of it can be due to immaturity or being overly sheltered, lack of social skills, etc. It's easy to be critical of others that make bad decisions but EVERYONE makes bad decisions, being imperfect and making mistakes is part of being human, and what might be easy for one person might not be easy for another person.

I don't think it is that it isn't understood that people make different lifestyle and economic decisions and we all pay for our decisions somehow no matter what they are; The sensationalism, victimization blaming, and "woe is me" that a small minority and media raise. No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses. It is a "take the lump, become stronger, make a plan for now and later, a…

> No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses.

According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, of which the USA is a signatory, they do. Namely:

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#516

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

fsdfsaf wrote: post #502

plaidfuji wrote: post #473

Much hand-wringing is being done by well-meaning moderates and centrists here, blaming both the President and Congress, wondering why our system allows for this to happen, expressing solidarity with the furloughed workers. At least the right questions are being asked. But the fact is that for this to end any time soon, the equivocating masses trying to stay on the sidelines, saying "oh those darned politicians...", a…

> It would be the same if Democrats in the House said, "we won't pass a funding bill unless it includes universal healthcare. If you don't agree, you're shutting the government down." Absurd. That's exactly what happened 5 years ago.

Please don't be dishonest here. In 2013 the GOP was trying very specifically to defund the ACA. The Democrats were pushing clean CRs. Again, it was the GOP trying to use a gov't shutdown to force the Democrats to agree to their wishes.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#517

Post by jrwoodruff » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:49 PM UTC

roywiggins wrote: post #263

clarkevans wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many western countries, when a government can't form a working coalition or agree on a budget, new elections are called.

American shutdowns were invented when someone realized that the Antideficiency Act probably prevents the government spending money if Congress failed to pass a budget. We could, if we wanted, amend that act to provide for an automatic continuance of funding, but we haven't. Deadlocks like this are definitely a feature of our system that Westminster-style systems resolve differently, but shutdowns are an artifact of a…

Yea, and if we did the continuance bit, we'd end up always running on automatic continuance funding, because that means all the politicians can continue to not do the hard work of negotiation and compromise.

I like the 'triggers an election' thing. Puts the right pressure in the right place - if people in place can't get along and come to a reasonable compromise to keep the country working, then the people need a way to make some changes.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#518

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #202

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

> Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues That's called a continuing resolution. And in the USA, Trump defeated it December 2018. They don't want a continuing resolution, so it doesn't happen. Its about that simple. Lawmakers can write the law however they want. Why would the Republicans decide to shoot down the CR this time? Politics. To…

Yeah. You've got short-sighted "warriors" on both sides, trying to score cheap political points while the country burns (mostly figuratively, so far).

Can states do recall elections? Because maybe that's the answer. If all 50 states held recall elections for all Senators and Representatives, that might concentrate minds in DC a bit...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#519

Post by tylersmith » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

morpheuskafka wrote: post #230

brianwawok wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contractors are not working now though they were sent home. There are 3 buckets of people: 1) Employees forced to work. Promised backpay by a resolution that was passed. 2) Employees not allowed to work. Promised backpay by a resolution. "Free vacation" 3) Contractors not allowed to work. Will not get backpay, money lost is "gone" forever.

Wouldn't 13A guarantee (1) getting paid regardless of resolution?

I believe the resolution is the implementation of the pay guaranteed by the 13th Amendment. The Amendment just says that they must be paid while the resolution says when and how that will happen.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#520

Post by trumped » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:50 PM UTC

sctb wrote: post #444

trumped wrote: post #314

That should get Pelosi moving? BTW, title nazi, the title of this post doesn't match the title of the article. That should be easy enough to automate?

If you won't start posting civilly and substantively we'll ban the account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize.

thanks for the link, and for fixing the title... CNN must have made that one up