US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#431

Post by School-Cotton » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

Really, every other country? Even Somalia, North Korea, or Venezuela?

I find that often when people criticize the US by saying "no other country has this problem!" they are mainly thinking of parliamentary democracies in Western Europe.

It's true that the US system doesn't function as well as most European countries. It functions better than most countries in the world.

Countries are on a spectrum of institutional competence from roughly Venezuela to Iceland. The US is somewhere in the interior of this spectrum, and not on one of its endpoints. I'm not sure why people find this so incredibly surprising. Do people just think that because the US is wealthy and powerful, it somehow "ought to" rival Western Europe on every other index of development?

That simply isn't the case -- the US is deeply dysfunctional in many ways and should be thought of in comparison with other deeply dysfunctional countries. Somebody can't "just" decide to fix its problems overnight.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#432

Post by busterarm » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #421

busterarm wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it really is the finance department. Boards vote on the CEO and serve as his advisors and that is certainly not the correct metaphor. More importantly, Congress sets the budget through the House and Senate budget committees, which then draft and pass appropriations bills. This is the point in the process where we are stuck. The President is saying "bring me budget bills that have the things I want and I won't vet…

Again, I'd have to respectfully disagree here. The US Treasury Department is most analogous to the finance department of most corporations. Which, incidentally, is also shutdown right now because the board and the ceo told them to close. (Just as an additional point of fact, the finance department of many organizations does not set departmental budgets. That's not how it works. One of the reasons they exist is to, "f…

Congressional appropriations bills are exactly how projects get financed in government. All this does it make it all the more clear to me that you don't know how this process works.

You still have provided zero justification for Congress being the "board" even though it is a terrible metaphor.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#433

Post by ilaksh » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

dentemple wrote: post #3

There'll be a lot of angry people if the same thing happens in Atlanta over Super Bowl weekend.

Good point. Actually that makes me think that it will magically get resolved just in time so that it doesn't interfere with wealthy-people's Super Bowl Plans.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#434

Post by pc86 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

whorleater wrote: post #412

benj111 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh ok, I understood your link to mean payment was allowed where essential. Aren't some people getting paid? aren't they deemed essential?!? Am I looking for sense where there isn't any?!

There are multiple layers in this shutdown: 1. This is a "partial government shutdown", so only some agencies (homeland security, state, SEC, etc) are affected. Some agencies like the Department of Defense are not affected and funded at previous levels. And 2. There are different levels of "federal workers": - "Essential" employees: government workers whose job are deemed to endanger "life" or "property", so they are…

Just to clarify on your second point, specifically re: essential employees.

Essential employees will 100% receive pay (no "very likely"). By law, they must be paid when the government reopens. No essential employee has ever worked and not (eventually) been paid for it.

Nonessential employees will receive pay almost certainly. While legally, since they're not working, they could not be paid, paying them takes an act of Congress. In every shutdown, all nonessential personnel have been paid for the time they would have worked once they return. It would be unprecedented for them not to get paid, and there would be huge backlash if they weren't paid. I'm sure most of them are expecting it and not making other arrangements.

Contractors working directly for the government aren't working and won't get paid as you said, however if they're working through a firm, they are most likely working at their employer's office on another project and being paid normally, assuming there's work.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#435

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

[deleted]

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#436

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #392

sokoloff wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the emergency fund for, if not for loss of income? If there is no condition under which you're expected to use it, it's just stranded money...

Typically people do not go to work while living on their emergency fund. That is why it doesn't sit well when we tell the government employees that they should be living off their hard-earned savings while they work for us for free. It's not an emergency, it's madness. To some extent, people work for the government because of the stability. You are not going to wake up one morning to find that the United States Gover…

I agree about the ridiculousness of the cause of the temporary income loss. It's still an emergency for the individual/family and therefore an instance for which the emergency fund exists.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#437

Post by jplayer01 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

richardknop wrote: post #259

clarkevans wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many western countries, when a government can't form a working coalition or agree on a budget, new elections are called.

Not necessarily. There are examples of stalemates in Europe when government could not be formed in years. For example in Belgium but also other countries. In those cases what would usually happen is there would be an interim government of bureaucrats / experts (university professors etc) appointed to lead the country until new election or until political parties can form some sort of a coalition.

None of these cases meant all government employees went unpaid. It’s not comparable at all.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#438

Post by PretzelFisch » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

mdavidn wrote: post #290

bluGill wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't blame only the president, congress has just as much blame for not passing a budget the president would agree to.

They did pass a CR back in December. Everyone thought the President would sign it. He changed his mind.

That was a Republican majority congress as well.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#439

Post by UncleMeat » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #282

fiveoak wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people have a hard time showing empathy for others. Part of it can be due to immaturity or being overly sheltered, lack of social skills, etc. It's easy to be critical of others that make bad decisions but EVERYONE makes bad decisions, being imperfect and making mistakes is part of being human, and what might be easy for one person might not be easy for another person.

I don't think it is that it isn't understood that people make different lifestyle and economic decisions and we all pay for our decisions somehow no matter what they are; The sensationalism, victimization blaming, and "woe is me" that a small minority and media raise. No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses. It is a "take the lump, become stronger, make a plan for now and later, a…

Nobody is entitled to a job. But if you work you are entitled to pay. The truly egregious thing here is all the people that are required to work without pay, preventing them from getting a different job.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#440

Post by jki275 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

hannasanarion wrote: post #402

busterarm wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it really is the finance department. Boards vote on the CEO and serve as his advisors and that is certainly not the correct metaphor. More importantly, Congress sets the budget through the House and Senate budget committees, which then draft and pass appropriations bills. This is the point in the process where we are stuck. The President is saying "bring me budget bills that have the things I want and I won't vet…

That is the point in the process where we are stuck now, but not where the sticking began a month ago. Trump had a perfectly good budget on his desk, written by his allies and passed by Republicans, and it even had wall funding in it, and he vetoed it because it wasn't enough. Then the government shut down. Then the Democrats took control.

Trump hasn't vetoed anything.

Neither party has "had control" in the senate for years. It takes 60 votes in the senate to pass a budget, and neither party has had that.

The situation is far more complex than you're stating it.