US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages • Hacker News Board

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#371

Post by sgjohnson » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

sparkie wrote: post #306

akhilcacharya wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this country was actually run like a business, the CEO would be fired by now.

If the country was run like a business, they wouldn't be in business, they would be bankrupt. The purpose of a business it create wealth. The purpose of government is to take wealth. Government does some useful functions with the wealth it takes, but extremely inefficiently. Private enterprises which are profit motivated consistently outperform government on budget, quality and time.

It’s sad seeing people actually disagreeing with you.

The US government is $21tn in debt. 21 trillion. With a constant budget deficit.

No private entity would be ever allowed to go that far.

If the Government is still taking money out of my paycheck, it simply isn’t shut down enough.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#372

Post by SilasX » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

tibbon wrote: post #56

wonderwonder wrote: post #24

Bearing in mind that ~40% of american's could not come up with $400 to cover emergencies, this is going to become more prevalent in the next few days / weeks as people will simply not be able to afford gas to get to their unpaid work. I read an article today discussing how TSA workers in HI are living in their cars in the airport parking lot as they cannot afford to commute. The FBI just cancelled its internship prog…

I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings in the bank then it's just their fault". It's really sad that instead of being compassionate, too many are focusing on what "should" be instead of what is the reality for many people. Like you point out, the reality is that most people don't have savings. They shoul…

Even ignoring compassion, you should at least be worried that events like these will make people more reluctant to work for the federal government, meaning the government will have to offer more payment to cover the risk, and thus taxpayers will have to pay more for the same services.

Edit: Or maybe not -- if the result of the 80s ATC strike is any indicator, the result will be more like "do nothing about pay, kvetch about the shortage of people willing to work for the federal government".

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#373

Post by hindsightbias » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #275

saalweachter wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's legal is what 5 people on the Supreme Court say is legal.

Unless it was deemed an emergency, how many months does it take a typical case to make it before the USSC?

All the years it takes to get through lower courts and appeals. And then probably six months after it is accepted.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#374

Post by dspillett » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

flyingpenguin wrote: post #77

tibbon wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings in the bank then it's just their fault". It's really sad that instead of being compassionate, too many are focusing on what "should" be instead of what is the reality for many people. Like you point out, the reality is that most people don't have savings. They shoul…

The thing that really bothers me about that "They should have savings" logic, is the expectation that they should have to use them. Yes. They should have savings. EVERYONE should have min 3 months of income in savings. No one should be expected to use it.

> EVERYONE should have min 3 months of income in savings.

It surprises me how few do though. I do. Six months or more in fact. I'm in a relatively well-paid job (senior-developer-come-local-database-export) as of course are many of the people around me, in fact some should be much better off, but there are those among them who get edgy if a mistake makes our pay late by a day because they have bills payments going out soon - they have little or no cushion or emergency fund.

The grads I can understand: they are young, they have debts from student lives that they are paying off, and even if those factors are not true/significant they aren't paid as well (they will be, we promote them fairly quickly if they show the relevant aptitude & attitude, but not yet) and they've not been working as long so haven't had the same chance to build up an emergency fund.

But people who have been working for years and have partners who have decently paid jobs too? I doubt they are paying much into a pension either. In a couple of decades they are going to have a nasty "surprise"...

Of course non of this would make a monthly paycheck or two being completely delayed a worrying experience. Even people successfully following the standard 3-month+ advice would be feeling insecure at that point.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#375

Post by zanny » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #226

resters wrote: post #93

At the risk of introducing a political topic into this supposedly apolitical subject, why shouldn't any president simply make demands and then shut down the government until his/her political opponents cave? Seemingly this strategy will not work ever again for either party if proper steps are taken. It seems like a terrible abuse of executive power.

The specific power being used here is the presidential veto, which is an important power of the president which is checked by the legislature being able to overrule a veto if they get enough votes. In more calm times they could just pass legislation that would end the concept of government shut downs by funding at the previous rate in the event of a failure to agree to new funding levels. Neither side wants that beca…

Its not nearly an equal cudgel. Generally the democrats want federal institutions to be in operation while Republicans want to disrupt and defund them. This correlates to 9 of 10 shutdowns (one in Bill Clintons term I'd consider him causing it) being propagated by Republicans on either side of negotiations, often with intent to defund some part of the government with the appropriations bills.

Of course, I wouldn't hesitate to blame Democrats - they had the house and senate in 2008-2010 and chose not to go about abolishing the electoral college, ending the possibility of shutdowns, or insuring the loophole that let a Republican congress delay voting on a supreme court nominee for a year was closed. They didn't bring any such bills or amendments to the floor in either house and never voted on any of it, so they can't even blame filibusters.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#376

Post by jessriedel » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

electrograv wrote: post #298

dawhizkid wrote: post #134

Interesting thing I discovered when I was concerned about SFO delays is that SFO is one of the few airports in the U.S. that does not use TSA for security...it hires its own private security officers. Edit: For those curious, these airports have private security (SFO is by far the largest as far as I can tell): https://www.tsa.gov/for-industry/screening-partnerships

Does this mean the airports experiencing a crippling loss of federal personnel could simply hire them onto their own payroll (the same people, even)? In such a case, all airports could keep functioning independent of government aid -- theoretically, anyway.

That is how the entire system use to operate:

> Prior to September 11, 2001, airport screening was provided in the U.S. by private companies contracted by the airline or airport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_security_repercussions...

Leaving our airport infrastructure dependent on the dysfunctional federal government was another downside to the nationalization of most of airport security.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#377

Post by peteey » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

The problem may be deficit spending. Part of the budget is paid for with debt. I don't think you can auto-approve a raise in the debt ceiling.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#378

Post by benj111 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

whorleater wrote: post #299

benj111 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to ask the same question as the parent. This is an answer, but what are the politics of it? Eg you could make an argument that government only maintains things (ie property and life) for the public good, therefore all state employees are required lest they endanger life and property. You could certainly make the case that air traffic controllers are essential to life. Try landing planes at a busy airport witho…

Air traffic controllers are essential to life, which is why they are asked to go to work currently. Not getting paid is a different question entirely.

Oh ok, I understood your link to mean payment was allowed where essential.

Aren't some people getting paid? aren't they deemed essential?!?

Am I looking for sense where there isn't any?!

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#379

Post by asabjorn » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

Both sides are being stupid here. Trump knew the #resistance mindset makes it impossible for democrats to even trade something they supposedly care about, DACA protections, for the wall he cares about.

I just find it mind-boggling that this path was even tried when it was a big gamble on popular opinion overruling #resistance.

I find it hypocritical that the democrats are willing to spend more money on #resistance than what they could trade wall for DACA protections. Remember, real americans and children brought here illegally are effected by this inability to trade what you supposedly care for with what someone else cares for.

It is human to care more for your family than you neighbor, more for your neighbor than a stranger countryman, more for a stranger countryman than one from another country. The people already here illegally are our countrymen, but the people not here yet are not. Lets make sure our people is taken care of.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#380

Post by hannasanarion » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 4:59 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #354

busterarm wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a real business, the finance department and the CEO wouldn't be locking horns over what to use company money for and it would never block payroll.

In fairness it's not really the finance department and the ceo, it's the ceo and the board locking horns. And the ceo and the board decided to shutdown the whole company until they get their little tiff ironed out. (Which, yeah, was a pretty dumb idea. But the ceo and the board are kind of known for having dumb ideas.)

This is 100% the CEO's decision. Remember, he rejected a perfectly good funding plan that was put forward by his own allies back in December, before his enemies took over the board on January 3.