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US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

bbc.com

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Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#331

Post by crb002 »

awinder wrote: post #108
tibbon wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings in the bank then it's just their fault". It's really sad that instead of being compassionate, too many are focusing on what "should" be instead of what is the reality for many people. Like you point out, the reality is that most people don't have savings. They shoul…

This is the longest shutdown ever, so we're kinda past the "reasonable expectation" line when you're in uncharted historical waters...

We have hit the US Constitution slavery provision at this point. Air traffic controllers could just walk.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#332

Post by Godel_unicode »

giarc wrote: post #114
jazzyk wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking, their pay is delayed - they will be paid for all the work, eventually. Still, regular employees should not be going through this, though.

What about the federal workers that aren't at work? Will they still get paid?

Yes:

https://www.fedweek.com/fedweek/guidance-issued-on-back-pay-...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/17/back-pay-...

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#333

Post by Casseres »

base698 wrote: post #254
opwieurposiu wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just wrong. Commercial flights fly all the time without ATC. The majority of airports in the USA are uncontrolled. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-towered_airport

Any flight above 17999 ft in class A airspace requires an IFR flight plan. IFR requires controllers for the clearance, release, and approach clearance. Probably what he means.... Most Jets and planes people have experience with would be flying at those altitudes.

FYI:

Civilian flights in Class A airspace (at or above 18,000ft in most places) require an IFR clearance.

State flights can fly "due regard" (VFR) in Class A airspace.

In Hawaii, there is no Class A airspace, and I once controlled a civilian aircraft flying VFR at FL210 (21,000ft).

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#334

Post by benj111 »

benj111 wrote: post #192
toomuchtodo wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In no first world country should you be afraid that your child will die because you can't pay your electric bill because you're not getting paid for a job you're forced to work . > A Kentucky family whose main source of income was lost because of the partial government shutdown worries they will soon loose the ability to care for their 15-month-old daughter who needs special equipment to stay alive. https://www.cnn.c…

On what level are they forced to work? They have the freedom to go find another job no? On some level we are all 'forced' to work, as we all need money. To be clear, I don't disagree with you, it just detracts from your point, that's all.

I'm not US so my question about being forced to work was genuine. My understanding was that they weren't 'forced'.

I have just had a (since deleted) reply that said they wont get paid back pay if they leave? If so that does change things. Is that the case?

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#335

Post by timdellinger »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

relevant explainer video:

https://youtu.be/KIbkoop4AYE

(CGP Grey's "The Debt Limit Explained")

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#336

Post by dwighttk »

lolsal wrote: post #310
dwighttk wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

75K record attendance 77K

That's really surprising to me - my favorite college football team regularly sells out their 100k seat stadium during the regular season. Seems like the superbowl is leaving a lot of money on the table.

they make a lot more money from TV

When they had the super bowl in Dallas they got 103K in the stadium which has an 80K seating capacity (expandable to 105K)

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#338

Post by zanny »

bdcravens wrote: post #218
mbostleman wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be illegal to strike but it's not illegal to to not work if you're not paid is it?

Depends on the job. There are some jobs where refusal to do your job may carry significant legal penalties (imagine if airline traffic controllers walked out with planes in the air)

How exactly is being legally forced to come in to a job, especially one that isn't even paying you, not either slavery or at least indentured servitude?

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#339

Post by skh »

ceejayoz wrote: post #292
skh wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you retracting your original statement: ...it'd be slavery if they couldn't quit. Coast Guardsmen are not being paid and are not allowed to quit. Therefore, according to your statement you think it is slavery.

No, I'm saying the USCG is in a very specific situation that's more akin to conscription than slavery, especially as they're certain to receive back pay when the shutdown lifts.

You made the statement that it'd be slavery if they couldn't quit. I didn't make that claim. You did. I presented a subset of federal workers who can't quit and aren't being paid. According to your statement it follows that this subset of federal workers are in slavery.

It's fine to misspeak or to not have thought about all of the implications of a statement. Just say you are retracting it or modifying it. You can't logically claim to maintain that it'd be slavery if they couldn't quit and then say of the workers who can't quit and are not being paid that they are not in slavery. This is a matter of logic and not opinion.

Say you are modifying your original claim to be it's not slavery because of backpay. Or say that you need to change the original statement in some way. But don't double down and claim your original statement holds when you don't believe the subset of unpaid federal workers who can't quit aren't in slavery!

It appears what you really believe is that workers who aren't being paid and aren't allowed to quit are in slavery unless they are in military type job. You should stop using conscription because no one in the Coast Guard was conscripted.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#340

Post by dandare »

Am I the only one who thinks that air traffic controllers and the airport security personnel hold the key to the shutdown? If airports close down, the shutdown will have to stop immediately, the damage to the economy would be so catastrophic not even Republicans could ignore it.
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