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US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

bbc.com

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Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#281

Post by dragontamer »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #212
nemothekid wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is all about appearance. I don't think the democrats should cave because this is a terrible precedent that far outstrips "appearance". It feels like a perversion of checks and balances where, because on side doesn't get what they want, they shut down the entire government until the other side caves. I won't be a fan of future presidents shutting down the government every time they can't come to a bipartisan ag…

Sure, but it also means that your position is that our government should be shut down and people should be unable to feed their families to prevent giving the opposition a mostly meaningless amount of money to build a useless thing that pales in comparison to how much we've blown on the F-35 (literally like 1% of the cost), a largely useless airplane. Which is to say, one party is certainly responsible for picking th…

The Democrats have the CR on their side: Continuing Resolution. The Democrats are asking for a simple, clean CR (the proposition to keep the old budget for just 3 or 4 weeks while we debate longer)

If the clean CR fails, then its a terrible future ahead. In 2018, when Democrats were in the opposite situation (they were denying the CR), it was on the onus of the Republicans to push for the CR.

--------

The only reason why the CR is agreed upon in the past, is because both sides recognize the harm that a shutdown would cause. Unfortunately, one side is willing to shutdown the government and avoid the CR this time.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#282

Post by czbond »

fiveoak wrote: post #166
tibbon wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings in the bank then it's just their fault". It's really sad that instead of being compassionate, too many are focusing on what "should" be instead of what is the reality for many people. Like you point out, the reality is that most people don't have savings. They shoul…

A lot of people have a hard time showing empathy for others. Part of it can be due to immaturity or being overly sheltered, lack of social skills, etc. It's easy to be critical of others that make bad decisions but EVERYONE makes bad decisions, being imperfect and making mistakes is part of being human, and what might be easy for one person might not be easy for another person.

I don't think it is that it isn't understood that people make different lifestyle and economic decisions and we all pay for our decisions somehow no matter what they are; The sensationalism, victimization blaming, and "woe is me" that a small minority and media raise. No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses. It is a "take the lump, become stronger, make a plan for now and later, accept it, move on" situation. I feel empathy but can parse the humanity from economic decisions. That said, workers should be paid during a shutdown.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#283

Post by mbostleman »

bdcravens wrote: post #218
mbostleman wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be illegal to strike but it's not illegal to to not work if you're not paid is it?

Depends on the job. There are some jobs where refusal to do your job may carry significant legal penalties (imagine if airline traffic controllers walked out with planes in the air)

Sure. I'm assuming there's some level of resolution that serves as a transaction. Like maybe a day, or a shift. In your example, I'm talking about your worker not walking out on a flight in final approach, but rather notifying the employer after the shift that she will not be showing up for any future shifts until she is paid.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#284

Post by bdcravens »

howlingfantods wrote: post #10

Seems like it’s just delays rather than a full stoppage. From Newsweek: ‘Flights arriving into LaGuardia Airport were delayed by about 41 minutes as of 10:15 a.m. EST and gate hold and taxi delays were between 15 and 29 minutes, although FAA said it was decreasing. Arrival traffic was experiencing airborne delays of 15 minutes or less.‘ Regardless, US scoring a lot of own goals here.

The title on this article was apparently changed; it's now "US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages"

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#285

Post by javagram »

warrenm wrote: post #255
javagram wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US system is so archaic at this point, the founding fathers never anticipated the federal government budget being this important to the country. Provisions for dealing with something like a shutdown just aren’t in the constitution other than 2/3 supermajority requirements for veto override or impeachment, which is a recipe for gridlock. Many US states have much more sane budgeting systems and manage to run even u…

>a recipe for gridlock That was the whole point of how the government of the US was designed: it's supposed to be hard to "get things done" at the federal level

Yea, because the feds were supposed to only handle post roads, the military, and free trade between the states and tariffs on international commerce.

The modern welfare state, where millions of people are immediately hurt by the federal system grinding to a halt and stopping, would have been anathema to the framers. Nevertheless by popular vote such programs have been federalized and now we have a constitution that doesn’t support their smooth operation.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#286

Post by busterarm »

akhilcacharya wrote: post #214
bouncing wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid, my dad was deciding between two engineering jobs; one for the US Department of Commerce and another in the private sector for a big aerospace contractor. The private sector one paid more, I remember, but my mother brought up to my dad something interesting: You're less likely to get laid off, and you'll always have more job security, with the stable paycheck provided by a government job. It's weird…

If this country was actually run like a business, the CEO would be fired by now.

In a real business, the finance department and the CEO wouldn't be locking horns over what to use company money for and it would never block payroll.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#287

Post by dalbasal »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

Most democracies run a parliamentary system, where the head of government has to have the support of parliament. There's no separation between government/executive from parliament.

The point being that if a prime minister can't reach an agreement with parliament on some core issue (like annual budgets), they cease being the PM. Usually this means a new election.

The US's checks and balances means that parliament and government can be in opposition to eachother, and prevent eachother from doing what they want. The president/government can veto legislation and parliament can de-fund government.

This current manifestation is an odd one because the President is de-funding government, which is de-funding his own stuff. This is because the convention of "shutdown" already existed.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#288

Post by benj111 »

whorleater wrote: post #112
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #87

I hope not too off topic, but I'm puzzled by shutdowns. Every other country I can think of has a system where if the finance is not agreed, the previous budget just continues. The budget sets the yearly amount for each department and it runs on until another budget changes how much everyone gets. Sometimes a new department gets created, sometimes something is abolished. Everyone gets their salary and services run on.…

The recent interpretations of the anti-deficiency act ( https://www.gao.gov/legal/appropriations-law-decisions/resou... ) means that the government can be shut down unless functions endanger "life" or "property". Congress could amend the anti-deficiency act to fund the government at previous levels, but that would remove the shutdown process as a political cudgel.

I came to ask the same question as the parent.

This is an answer, but what are the politics of it?

Eg you could make an argument that government only maintains things (ie property and life) for the public good, therefore all state employees are required lest they endanger life and property.

You could certainly make the case that air traffic controllers are essential to life. Try landing planes at a busy airport without them.

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#289

Post by [deleted] »

yingw787 wrote: post #35

Even without the shutdown, the U.S. air traffic control system may experience greater strain in the years to come due to a generational deficit in the number of new air traffic controllers being trained and staffed: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathryncreedy/2016/01/28/contro... This may have been an issue with Reagan firing all members of PATCO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Contr... Whereas…

[deleted]

Re: US shutdown: Flight delays caused by staff shortages

#290

Post by mdavidn »

bluGill wrote: post #174
resters wrote: post #93

At the risk of introducing a political topic into this supposedly apolitical subject, why shouldn't any president simply make demands and then shut down the government until his/her political opponents cave? Seemingly this strategy will not work ever again for either party if proper steps are taken. It seems like a terrible abuse of executive power.

Don't blame only the president, congress has just as much blame for not passing a budget the president would agree to.

They did pass a CR back in December. Everyone thought the President would sign it. He changed his mind.
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