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DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

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Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#61

Post by baddox »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #32

Some of the commentary shows that the UI is a barrier . The fact we can understand the strategies, but cannot physically make it happen shows that at least some of the advantage is just the precision of the inputs. Could be a new way to play SC2 like games where we can better communicate our intentions to the game. For example, make a type of move action where the stalkers automatically retreat and stop to fire, inst…

It's really just a matter of of the game designers deciding what types of skills they want the game to require. If you want to reward micromanagement skills, then remove aids like that. If you want to reward strategy, then throw in all the micro aids.

Personally, I think Starcraft 2 has chosen a near perfect balance, although I recognize that it leans more toward micromanagement than pretty much every competitive RTS game other than its predecessor. Coming from Brood War, I can say "you should be happy even being able to select huge numbers of units and hotkey groups of buildings." :)

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#62

Post by triangleman »

plaidfuji wrote: post #51

This is mad impressive, for sure. With most AI problems, I can at least comprehend the approach, and the necessary combination of models. Not so much here. My first question is what is the input to the AI? Is it the raw pixel array of the display? Or does it get API-level readouts of what’s happening? Because implementing the CV just to segment the display output in real time is crazy enough. I would assume the latte…

Blizzard released a client with an output accessible to machines, but still preserving fog of war. See here:

https://deepmind.com/blog/deepmind-and-blizzard-open-starcra...

Here's what I want to know, were these agents developed from scratch a la AlphaZero in chess, or did they have to create a number of abstractions in order to get the AI to start learning the game? In the initial demonstration they could hardly get the AI to mine minerals or do anything. How did they make the jump to actually good play?

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#64

Post by pbalau »

plaidfuji wrote: post #51

This is mad impressive, for sure. With most AI problems, I can at least comprehend the approach, and the necessary combination of models. Not so much here. My first question is what is the input to the AI? Is it the raw pixel array of the display? Or does it get API-level readouts of what’s happening? Because implementing the CV just to segment the display output in real time is crazy enough. I would assume the latte…

Open source API. Please re-watch the start of the presentation.

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#65

Post by [deleted] »

plaidfuji wrote: post #51

This is mad impressive, for sure. With most AI problems, I can at least comprehend the approach, and the necessary combination of models. Not so much here. My first question is what is the input to the AI? Is it the raw pixel array of the display? Or does it get API-level readouts of what’s happening? Because implementing the CV just to segment the display output in real time is crazy enough. I would assume the latte…

[deleted]

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#66

Post by Topgamer7 »

gambler wrote: post #55
kmnc wrote: post #45

Very impressive... but it seems like the AI relies entirely on abusing blink stalkers which with perfect micro is basically impossible to counter. It is no surprise it can crush pros when it has perfect timing and zero mistakes in using these units. I think the coolest thing is how the play of AI mirrors a similar style to how pros have developed (Micro harrasing early, early expansions, a very good understanding of…

Stuff like that is why StarCraft is not a very good game to test AI on. It's good for publicity, because it is well-known and has a pro scene so you can claim to "beat humans", but it's too complex in some ways (ruleset) and too simplistic in others (mostly just killing stuf). APM and micromanagement are huge, while long-term strategies are fairly limited compared to many other strategy games. With all of this, it's…

There are limitations they put on the AI to try ti restrict to human levels. Such as having an action counter. And in the demonstration they filmed today, they actually limited the information the AI knows about to the screen space, which is probably along the lines of what you were wanting.

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#67

Post by asar »

The live exhibition match definitely made Alphastar look like a machine making the decisions, not a super smart being. The micro was obviously impressive but that should also be the easiest part to master. I share the sentiment that DeepMind is hosting big events to paint a very one-sided picture of man vs machine, so this last win of mana feels oddly satisfying.

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#68

Post by aurelwu »

devilmoon wrote: post #53

I'm not proficient in Starcraft, but if they have to make Pros play against 5 different agents for a Bo5 is it because the same agent would merely repeat the same game overall and the human player would be able to see through its strategy? AFAIK at least for Go/Chess DeepMind wasn't handpicking agents to send against human opponents, but it was simply a trained agent who would try its own strategy and respond to the…

Different agents for now, and 1 of the 6 possible matchups and just on one map (starcraft usually is played on multiple different maps/boards with different layouts over the course of a series). Given that this was just a demonstration match it's reasonable restrictions and they surely will lift them one by one (just like they removed the zoomed out vision in the final, live-played match). I'm really impressed with their performance, and even if my brother was just playing offrace I didn't expect him to lose.

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#69

Post by Veedrac »

samfriedman wrote: post #22
candiodari wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all of the games Alphastar was slower than TLO in the build order. I agree that TLO could have been faster, but this was definitely not the deciding factor. I think the main factor was Alpha* just had incredibly accurate assessment of exactly what part of it's army it needed to defend/attack and was very careful.

The DeepMind folks on stream just mentioned that Alphastar's inference speed is about 50ms from observation to action.

I thought they said 350ms.

E: https://youtu.be/cUTMhmVh1qs?t=3272

Re: DeepMind StarCraft II Demonstration [video]

#70

Post by 1258989fdg »

The AI makes some awful decisions, such as building five observers. This calls into question its "understanding" of the game. It looks like a lot of its ability comes from micro, which it's unsurprising a computer can do better than a human.

This is impressive, but with a lot of caveats. DeepMind's work on chess and go was impressive with no caveats whatsoever.

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