Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#191

Post by Dangeranger » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

idontpost wrote: post #177

simion314 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is different then the acting though? Actors have unions that protect their rights but don't affect their salaries AFAIK (maybe they were abused so much that the history if fresh for them still?)

The difference is that actors were treated like shit first. Even the stars. Just look at what they did to Judy Garland, not to mention everyone else on Wizard of Oz. That hasn't happened yet to developers.

You may want to think back just 25 years to the early to mid-nineties when developers where considered “code monkeys” who couldn’t think past their current module and needed “business analysts” to write requirements for them.

It wasn’t slavery by any stretch, but working in programming was akin to working in “IT” and thought of as a department full of weird nerds who cost the company money.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#192

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

idontpost wrote: post #177

simion314 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is different then the acting though? Actors have unions that protect their rights but don't affect their salaries AFAIK (maybe they were abused so much that the history if fresh for them still?)

The difference is that actors were treated like shit first. Even the stars. Just look at what they did to Judy Garland, not to mention everyone else on Wizard of Oz. That hasn't happened yet to developers.

Tell it to the workers in the video game industry.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#193

Post by mbostleman » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:42 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #159

mbostleman wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one holds strongly a principle that opposes monopolies and supports strong anti-trust protections in the market, it would explain why the same argument is made regardless of industry. Also, the issue focusing on using the company email system sounds to me like a bit of a strawman. Why in the world would you want to use a communication medium owned and controlled by your opponent for such a thing? And even if you w…

Congratulations! You figured out that this isn’t about “theft of services” or anything like that. It’s about 1) Legalizing retaliation in case you mention the union meeting to a coworker over a Slack private message. 2) Drastically reducing the visibility of union organization in the workplace. That makes it much harder to reach critical mass.

To me the primary issue has nothing to do with unions. It has to do with private property. The company pays for and owns the property. No one should have any "rights" to using it.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#194

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #90

josephv wrote: post #79

These comments read like a bunch of low-income retail shoppers defending Walmart because they provide something they otherwise couldn't get. I think these types of debates are bellwether for programmer/IT professional unionization. These are the exact types of lawsuits brought against organized labor as it was trying to get organized to prevent exploitative behavior. It's disturbing to see these same anti-organizatio…

Programmers, maybe ones on HN especially, are super conservative and anti-labour for some reason. I don't know the history of Silicon Valley enough to figure out exactly why

[deleted]

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#195

Post by novembermike » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #161

rconti wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. And due to the high demand of our skills, we're able to effectively negotiate salaries and comp in a way that at least lets us think we're doing better than average (see: salary transparency, or lack thereof). Plus, we're not a group generally known to like more layers of bureaucracy.

It's more "temporarily embarrassed billionaires" imho. Many HN denizens are angling to either work at google or launch a startup that is acquired by google or grow to the scale of google. Why offend the future employer / acquirer now over proletarian issues? In case you aren't familiar with the Steinbeck quote: > Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but…

This is misquoted quite a bit. Here's the actual quote.

"Except for the field organizers of strikes, who were pretty tough monkeys and devoted, most of the so-called Communists I met were middle-class, middle-aged people playing a game of dreams. I remember a woman in easy circumstances saying to another even more affluent: 'After the revolution even we will have more, won't we, dear?' Then there was another lover of proletarians who used to raise hell with Sunday picknickers on her property. "I guess the trouble was that we didn't have any self-admitted proletarians. Everyone was a temporarily embarrassed capitalist. Maybe the Communists so closely questioned by the investigation committees were a danger to America, but the ones I knew—at least they claimed to be Communists—couldn't have disrupted a Sunday-school picnic. Besides they were too busy fighting among themselves."

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#196

Post by x220 » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #119

mcv wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how programmers are super conservative. In my experience, especially on HN, they tend to be fairly progressive on average. However, they also tend to be somewhat libertarian. And so far, software development hasn't been an industry that really needed unionisation. But that could always change in the future, of course. Personally, I generally support unions, though I don't see the need for them in software…

I've found that programmers tend to be socially liberal (pro-gay rights, abortion rights, etc.) but financially conservative (don't like their money being spent on public goods). Which somewhat overlaps with libertarianism, yes.

I would call it libertarianism if most of the people I've written to seem to actually believe in minarchist government and having rights limited only as much as absolutely necessary. I don't think that's what most people on here believe. I think most people here hold a few political-social ideas they strongly believe in (such as LGBT issues or clean energy), a smattering of other fashionable social opinions, and then finally an entirely selfish collection of fiscal ideas which objectively seem to benefit themselves the most.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#197

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

0x262d wrote: post #131

tivert wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programmers, maybe ones on HN especially, are super conservative and anti-labour for some reason. I don't know the history of Silicon Valley enough to figure out exactly why That's not quite right, HN is full of anti-labor libertarians . And I think it has something to do with startup culture, which is a lot about working to get a golden ticket to join the capitalist class. That causes a lot of people to identify w…

yes. and in addition, programmers in general while technically workers have a pretty cushy middle class existence.

So did doctors and lawyers, at one point.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#198

Post by danharaj » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #189

danharaj wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This conversation isn't about equal access. You're right. It's about workers rights. I'm telling you that I think construing the ability of workers to effectively organize as a convenience is also an insulting stance. In fact, I'm glad I chose an example that you find important. Maybe you can consider the possibility that there is a higher principle at work, maybe one that is as important to society as equal access…

> Maybe you can consider the possibility that there is a higher principle at work I would have started with that. At this point you are shifting ground to qualify an indefensible position on a topic that isn't that important.

The only purpose of my example was to show that in general the implication that ease of use reduces to convenience is false. I used an obvious counterexample. In summary, to imply that I think your assertion that it's about convenience is unjustified and off-base. If you think I was drawing an equivalence between the two situations, then I apologize for not being clear.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#199

Post by salawat » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #121

typon wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programmers, maybe ones on HN especially, are super conservative and anti-labour for some reason. I don't know the history of Silicon Valley enough to figure out exactly why

Almost every programmer I've met in real life, and certainly most of the folks on HN, are very liberal yet are largely anti-organized labor. Don't conflate a general disdain for one policy with an entire political ideology.

Not all are. Unfortunately, the need to unionize period is a sign that employers are neglecting the employee side of the partnership, largely in a never-ending quest for growth of shareholder value.

No one WANTS unions. We would like to be dealt with individually in a fair manner. But when tithe business you want to employ you has an entire department intended to get you to sign on for the smallest cost possible... Well... Some union starts to look like a pretty good idea. Even if it does end up causing a lot of grinding since common sense goes out the window once lawyers and contracts come into the picture.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#200

Post by calibas » Thu, Jan 24, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #90

josephv wrote: post #79

These comments read like a bunch of low-income retail shoppers defending Walmart because they provide something they otherwise couldn't get. I think these types of debates are bellwether for programmer/IT professional unionization. These are the exact types of lawsuits brought against organized labor as it was trying to get organized to prevent exploitative behavior. It's disturbing to see these same anti-organizatio…

Programmers, maybe ones on HN especially, are super conservative and anti-labour for some reason. I don't know the history of Silicon Valley enough to figure out exactly why

I think it's simply because many people here dream of some day becoming the next Gates, Bezos, or Elon and they don't really empathize with the thousands and thousands of people whose hard work actually creates that ridiculous amount of wealth.