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Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

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Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more "temporarily embarrassed billionaires" imho. Many HN denizens are angling to either work at google or launch a startup that is acquired by google or grow to the scale of google. Why offend the future employer / acquirer now over proletarian issues? In case you aren't familiar with the Steinbeck quote: > Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but…

"Embarrassed" -> "disenfranchised" has a nice ring to it.

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Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#172
post #79

These comments read like a bunch of low-income retail shoppers defending Walmart because they provide something they otherwise couldn't get. I think these types of debates are bellwether for programmer/IT professional unionization. These are the exact types of lawsuits brought against organized labor as it was trying to get organized to prevent exploitative behavior. It's disturbing to see these same anti-organizatio…

If the employee side is numerous enough to unionise, the employer side should also be numerous enough to establish an employer organisation.

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Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#173
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing stock holders would argue that there's a fiduciary duty to get the best legal defense and the lawyers have a similar mandate. Still you would think that Google would not mount such a defense on the basis of a moral principal.

IANAL but "We're in an extremely competitive industry and we might lose all of our best people if we do this" is a perfectly good reason to give shareholders. It only breaks fiduciary duty if the executives have concrete data that their actions will have zero impact on hiring, which is a stretch.

> we might lose all of our best people if we do this

This is the argument media seems to be making for long time. So far instead of all not even 0.01% seems to have shown conviction and left Google. Or it just might be the case the best people seems more concerned only with technical issues at work.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny detail, it turns out the complaints were filed against conservative ex-googlers alleging that they were discriminated against by the progressive activist majority inside Google. The people filing NRLB complaints probably disagree with you about the morality of all your bullet points above, and they're claiming they were discriminated against for disagreeing with the consensus. I wonder if that changes progressi…

Not my opinion. These rules are in place for the good of all workers. We need to hold on to what power we have, the right not to be retaliated against for attempting to organize being one of the most basic.

That's great for you but I'm saying that the great mass of 'progressives' who are outraged by this filing were 100% on board with firing these people in the first place.

So which is it? Speech is protected or speech should be punished?

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#175
post #63
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I wrote a contrived example. But the onus, I think, is on the critics in this thread to provide the theory of legal ethics under which attorneys should refrain from advancing the most effective defense of their clients if doing so might cause public relations concerns. It's my understanding that zealously defending their clients within the bounds of the law is among an attorney's highest obligations.

To use an equally contrived example of my own — there's plenty of jurisdictions where arguing something along the lines of "look at how she was dressed, she was asking for it" will get you off the hook on rape charges. Would you still argue that an attorney who makes that argument is merely "advancing the most effective defense of their clients"? Or would you find that conduct reprehensible both for the attorney, and…

> To use an equally contrived example of my own — there's plenty of jurisdictions where arguing something along the lines of "look at how she was dressed, she was asking for it" will get you off the hook on rape charges.

Rape is an unusually problematic situation because consensual sex and unconsensual sex produce a lot of the same physical evidence, and it's possible for someone to consent but after the fact have regrets or experience social pressure.

That leaves you having to evaluate evidence of whether or not there was consent. If you're a falsely accused defendant trying to rebut a claim that she didn't consent, what evidence of that do you propose to use?

Also notice that look at how she was dressed is a particularly ineffective "get out of jail free card" when the accuser was a nun dressed in her habit.

The implications of that, i.e. that you're more credible if you dress conservatively and don't attend frat parties, are very politically inconvenient.

But a black man has a constitutional right to carry a handgun, which also makes it more likely that he'll be shot by the police who will use it as a defense. It would be better if these trade offs didn't exist, but how do you propose to make them not?

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you can just look at the surface and see it as a natural consequence of a relatively easy, high-income, unregulated profession, with high demand for workers. Many of the benefits of collective bargaining aren't applicable to people who are relatively easily able to switch jobs or work as a consultant. That then tends to lead to… complacency, I guess? I would expect that relatively few people in that field hav…

What is different then the acting though? Actors have unions that protect their rights but don't affect their salaries AFAIK (maybe they were abused so much that the history if fresh for them still?)

Actors' unions do impact salary. Union contracts set and enforce minimum amounts that all working actors have to be paid, for example. An actor earning these amounts is said to be "working for scale."

For illustration, SAG-AFTRA's current rate sheet for TV productions can be found here: https://www.sagaftra.org/files/2017%202020%20wages%20TV%2010...

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you can just look at the surface and see it as a natural consequence of a relatively easy, high-income, unregulated profession, with high demand for workers. Many of the benefits of collective bargaining aren't applicable to people who are relatively easily able to switch jobs or work as a consultant. That then tends to lead to… complacency, I guess? I would expect that relatively few people in that field hav…

What is different then the acting though? Actors have unions that protect their rights but don't affect their salaries AFAIK (maybe they were abused so much that the history if fresh for them still?)

The difference is that actors were treated like shit first. Even the stars. Just look at what they did to Judy Garland, not to mention everyone else on Wizard of Oz.

That hasn't happened yet to developers.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#178
post #144
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every programmer I've met in real life, and certainly most of the folks on HN, are very liberal yet are largely anti-organized labor. Don't conflate a general disdain for one policy with an entire political ideology.

Liberalism is a right-wing ideology...

That's an equivocation. The word has been around for hundreds of years and represents many different things. For example, "Liberalism" in the US is both associated with American Libertarianism and with FDR's New Deal, and those two things have about as much in common as oil and water.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this is true. My career is also a result of the excellent mentors I have and continue to have, the wonderful peers I cooperate with, the selfless professors who taught me fundamentals, the excellent technology already built by those who came before me, etc. I really can't say that my career is a result of my own hard work and passion as if my own hard work and passion is the primary thing that allowed…

Tech makes an alternative path available to others though. You can be a self taught programmer and become very successful. It's one of the only fields where you can achieve an upper middle class lifestyle without accreditation. You'll definitely be working hard to make that happen though.

I couldn't be self taught without learning materials that others have produced, the programming languages that others wrote, or the technology that others built.

I'm also not speaking mentors and peers just in school. I mean literally I do not believe I could be self-taught with 0 outside mentorship or learning materials or community and be considered a highly successful developer. I needed learning materials and mentors to teach me best practices in software development. I needed programming languages that I didn't write myself. I needed a computer, whether paid for by myself, family, or the public taxes via libraries.

Not stopping to recognize that I program on the shoulders of giants would make me arrogant and foolish, I think.

Re: Google Urged the U.S. to Limit Protection for Activist Workers

#180
There’s something very rotten at the top levels at Google. The “Don’t be evil” motto has long disappeared and has been replaced by apathy and/or hostility on different fronts.

Maybe this move by Google is actually good...to help more employees and others realize how the company has morphed into something that’s no longer doing as much good for humanity as it used to boast about.

I’m still hopeful that the rot in companies like Google and Facebook will be the biggest trigger for decentralized and privacy respecting platforms (and also in this context, preserving the freedom of people to dissent) to grow faster.

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