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Why We Dominate the Earth

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Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#21

Post by NotAnEconomist »

lordnacho wrote: post #2

> Surprisingly, it’s not our shared language or even our ability to dominate other species that defines us but rather, our shared fictions. I read his book where he talks about this. It makes some sense: you can operate at varied scales if you have shared fictions. When you meet a complete stranger, you're both members of the human race, sharing a desire for a better future. Meet a fellow countryman, and there are so…

This seems like a technology enabled by our capacity for language and abstraction.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#22

Post by jpadkins »

I've wondered if mathematics is a 'shared fiction'. Obviously money and laws are shared fictions, but I wondered if other species can't grasp math concepts (beyond counting) because there is a fictional or conceptual element that their brains can't process.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#23

Post by seren »

est31 wrote: post #6

We are great at coordinated actions on varying scales, but I wonder whether we can also do coordinated actions at global scales that outspan an individual's lifespan. Like in preventing climate change. Or in making sure that we don't nuke each other. The nuking experiment has been running for a few decades only. Can we avoid rocking the boat so hard that it keels over?

Empires or religions are great unifying forces that span centuries and continents, so yes it is possible to have a narrative that goes beyond a simple human life.

Regarding the global scale, even if we don't realize it, we mostly already have a global common culture. Everyone is organizing its time in year of 365 days, split in 24 hours, counting in base 10, have mostly the same economical policies. Even ISIS has seized and used dollars from banks in their occupied territory, so they also believe in the dollar [0]. All of the these things were not true 10,000 years ago, we have probably already lost thousands of different human cultures since the start of agriculture. Sure we still have regional preferences on sport, food, festival, etc, but mostly all humans are running the same basic OS, so to speak.

So are we going to coordinates on the global scale, only time will tell, but this is much more likely today that it was 1,000 years ago.

[0] IIRC this is an example taken from Sapiens in the chapter about money.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#24

Post by sh4rk »

Sorry but isn't it just because we innovate? We innovate without evolution. Does any other species innovate without evolution? Something feels wrong to me here. It almost like it's the exact opposite: shared fiction is what hold us back (though it's probably good from a survival stand point), and innovation is what makes us unique, and it specially happens when there is no fiction but a real search for the truth.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#25

Post by mikeash »

devmunchies wrote: post #3

I saw an interesting, related theory in an ecology book I read recently. Most native peoples were very in tune withe the earth (Pagan Europe, Native American tribes, Hindu India, Tribal Africa, Aboriginal Australia, etc). The rise of Abrahamic religion, with man as the most important creature on the planet and everything on earth created for man, is a factor for why we "dominate" the earth.

I’d say the Earth was fairly well dominated by the time Abrahamic religion started to become mainstream around 300AD.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#26

Post by mostlysimilar »

hammock wrote: post #4
lordnacho wrote: post #2

> Surprisingly, it’s not our shared language or even our ability to dominate other species that defines us but rather, our shared fictions. I read his book where he talks about this. It makes some sense: you can operate at varied scales if you have shared fictions. When you meet a complete stranger, you're both members of the human race, sharing a desire for a better future. Meet a fellow countryman, and there are so…

That night in Istanbul was a fiction? Isn't that just a shared story?

"Football" being anything other than a bunch of humans running around on some grass kicking the ball is the "fiction" in this context, where "fiction" means "shared belief" and things like game rules, organized competition, etc. are mutually agreed upon and able to be talked about.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#27

Post by lordnacho »

hammock wrote: post #4
lordnacho wrote: post #2

> Surprisingly, it’s not our shared language or even our ability to dominate other species that defines us but rather, our shared fictions. I read his book where he talks about this. It makes some sense: you can operate at varied scales if you have shared fictions. When you meet a complete stranger, you're both members of the human race, sharing a desire for a better future. Meet a fellow countryman, and there are so…

That night in Istanbul was a fiction? Isn't that just a shared story?

The fiction is that you have something to do with those guys who kick the ball around.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#28

Post by mjlee »

jpadkins wrote: post #22

I've wondered if mathematics is a 'shared fiction'. Obviously money and laws are shared fictions, but I wondered if other species can't grasp math concepts (beyond counting) because there is a fictional or conceptual element that their brains can't process.

There is a fair amount of discussion about this in the most recent episode of the BBC show This Infinite Monkey Cage: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00024ph

Should be downloadable as a podcast for the next couple of weeks from most sources.

It's a fairly light take on science with some comedy and teasing, but the scientific element is respectable.

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#29

Post by LoSboccacc »

I think this is all nice and well and but we raised to the top of the food chain because we had pointier sticks, abstract thinking came later. Much later.

> About 70,000 or so years ago [...] the cognitive revolution

https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/homo/homo_4.htm

> about 2.5 million years ago [...] Oldowan tools

Re: Why We Dominate the Earth

#30

Post by cobbzilla »

sh4rk wrote: post #24

Sorry but isn't it just because we innovate? We innovate without evolution. Does any other species innovate without evolution? Something feels wrong to me here. It almost like it's the exact opposite: shared fiction is what hold us back (though it's probably good from a survival stand point), and innovation is what makes us unique, and it specially happens when there is no fiction but a real search for the truth.

> Does any other species innovate without evolution?

Technically yes, but for all practical purposes no. Different clans of primates (chimpanzees iirc) have "innovated" distinct and novel ways to get food, specific to their clan. These are not innate, they are taught within the clan and passed down from generation to generation. With this, they share a common cultural knowledge and can preserve it into the future.

From a practical point of view, the speed of this "innovation" is glacial, but not all that different from the pace of human progress for most of our history.

So what makes us different? I'd argue that the evolution of speech/language provided the most important initial boost. With language, all cultural knowledge, including innovations, becomes so much easier to retain across generations.

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