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Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

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Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#21

Post by pbalau »

jsjohnst wrote: post #19
pbalau wrote: post #8

The biggest difference between a DSLR and a mirrorless is the wayfinder: on mirrorless you get digital vs analog on dslr (via the mirror system). In terms of controls, both have more or less the same, with some naming differences. I would go for second hand set, either canon or nikon, whatever model!, with the stock zoom lens (18-55) and get a fixie (not zoom lens, 50mm works great for lots of conditions and most of…

> on mirrorless you get digital vs analog on dslr There’s plenty of dSLRs with digital viewfinders at all price points in virtually all brands.

why they need the mirrors then? (genuinely asking)

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#22

Post by Someone1234 »

pbalau wrote: post #21
jsjohnst wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on mirrorless you get digital vs analog on dslr There’s plenty of dSLRs with digital viewfinders at all price points in virtually all brands.

why they need the mirrors then? (genuinely asking)

Yeah. I think the person above is confusing a digital overlay with a digital viewfinder. Apples and oranges.

As useful as digital overlays are (and they are, particularly the graphs) they cannot do what an LCD viewfinder can do which is to say completely "demo" what the final picture will look like (i.e. show the results of shutter speed and ISO settings).

Mirrored lens cameras still have their usages. I'd definitely take one for high speed sports shooting in particular (even the best LCDs introduce some latency).

But for day to day, particularly learning photography, digital viewfinders are a huge improvement that make mirrorless worth it all by themselves. I'd never go back to a DSLR, the loss of information in the viewfinder is a massive deficit (not to mention the weight/size/unreliability).

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#23

Post by theandrewbailey »

ValentineC wrote: post #12
theandrewbailey wrote: post #10

I was shopping around for a camera about 4 years ago. I realized that normal digital cameras are essentially smartphones. So I bought a Nikon D3300 (DSLR, ~$500). I haven't bought any extra things for it (used what was in the box), and an acquaintance gave me a tripod he wasn't using. I've considered getting a long focus lens, but the stock lens is sufficient for me (cue horror from "pro photographers"). I've never u…

> I've considered getting a long focus lens, but the stock lens is sufficient for me (cue horror from "pro photographers"). Two reasons you'd want to get special lenses would be: 1) to reach a certain zoom length for sports, animals, or architecture; or 2) to get nicer bokeh for portraits.

Exactly. I often find myself shooting pictures and videos from across a church sanctuary (I'm my church's semi/un/official photographer). I've considered getting a lens because of that, but the stock lens's maximum zoom is good enough, especially if I walk around a bit.

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#24

Post by gmiller123456 »

#1 Join a photography club and become very active in it, not much else will help you learn faster. I waited about 10 years before joining a club, and it's the one thing I wish I did from the start. The club I'm most active in also has monthly competitions with an external judge brought in (both print and digital). That also helps a lot, as you get to see what other people consider their best work and discuss it.

As far as mirrorless vs DSLR. I think the mirrorless craze is mostly over. There is a group that tracks industry trends (which I can't find right now) and the mirrorless market is on the way down.

I looked into getting a mirrorless several years ago. I think they have two advantages. 1. They weight a lot less and are smaller, so they work well for hiking and backpacking and other situations where photography isn't your main reason for going. 2. You can usually find adapters for most of them to use "normal" DSLR lenses, though usually with some limitations.

But there are a lot of downsides to mirrorless. The market is pretty fragmented, so there might be good lenses/accessories that aren't available no matter which you line choose. Most of the lenses are low end, and there isn't much competition in the high end lenses. Once you've got a few good lenses and a good tripod, the size/weight advantage of the mirrorless body becomes negligable. The market is young and fragile, so it's very likely which ever brand you choose might go out of business or become obsolete.

In the end I didn't find a mirrorless as being right for me. I wanted one for backpacking and kayaking, and to have at the ready in my car for unexpected opportunities. But I found getting some lenses for my cell phone suited me a lot better for those casual needs. And I carry my heavy DLSR and tripod on the hikes.

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#25

Post by jsjohnst »

Someone1234 wrote: post #22
pbalau wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why they need the mirrors then? (genuinely asking)

Yeah. I think the person above is confusing a digital overlay with a digital viewfinder. Apples and oranges. As useful as digital overlays are (and they are, particularly the graphs) they cannot do what an LCD viewfinder can do which is to say completely "demo" what the final picture will look like (i.e. show the results of shutter speed and ISO settings). Mirrored lens cameras still have their usages. I'd definitely…

> they cannot do what an LCD viewfinder can do which is to say completely "demo" what the final picture will look like (i.e. show the results of shutter speed and ISO settings).

I’m definitely not talking about an overlay. I’m talking live full demo view on the LCD screen. The mirror is “locked up” when the LCD screen is on and you get a preview of what the end result photo would be just like you describe isn’t possible.

From Wikipedia[0], here’s a list of the first model supporting live view of each respective series:

Canon: 20Da, 40D, 450D, 1000D, 1D Mark III, 5D Mark II, 6D Mark II, 7D

Fujifilm: FinePix S3 Pro, FinePix IS Pro

Leica: Digilux 3

Nikon: D90, D300, D700, D3

Olympus: E-10, E-330, E-30, E-3

Panasonic: DMC-L1

Pentax: K20D, K-7, K-x

Samsung: GX-20

Sony: A300, A350, A500, A55, and A77

As most of those cameras were released ~10 years ago and as the Wikipedia article indicates “there is no product line in which live preview has been abandoned after being introduced”, there are now probably almost a hundred models of dSLRs with live preview functionality, if not more. In fact, that article goes on to state:

> and almost all new DSLRs have had the feature since mid-2008

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_preview

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#26

Post by jsjohnst »

pbalau wrote: post #21
jsjohnst wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> on mirrorless you get digital vs analog on dslr There’s plenty of dSLRs with digital viewfinders at all price points in virtually all brands.

why they need the mirrors then? (genuinely asking)

The mirror is for the small optical viewfinder window at the top. When you hit the button for live preview, the mirror is “locked up” and the main sensor powers a “live view” on the LCD screen which gives you a preview including aperture/iso/exposure/etc settings all applied just like on many mirrorless cameras.

The reason the small viewfinder exists is because it draws power to keep the sensor on and the mirror locked up. Keeping the sensor on for long periods of time can cause the sensor to heat up which will degrade picture quality (albeit not by a lot with current high end sensors, so the main reason is power draw). Historically the focusing and E-TTL sensors were also only on the same side of the mirror as the optical viewfinder, so you’d lose auto-focus and flash metering when the mirror was locked up, but that is generally not the case anymore.

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#27

Post by Someone1234 »

jsjohnst wrote: post #25
Someone1234 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I think the person above is confusing a digital overlay with a digital viewfinder. Apples and oranges. As useful as digital overlays are (and they are, particularly the graphs) they cannot do what an LCD viewfinder can do which is to say completely "demo" what the final picture will look like (i.e. show the results of shutter speed and ISO settings). Mirrored lens cameras still have their usages. I'd definitely…

> they cannot do what an LCD viewfinder can do which is to say completely "demo" what the final picture will look like (i.e. show the results of shutter speed and ISO settings). I’m definitely not talking about an overlay. I’m talking live full demo view on the LCD screen. The mirror is “locked up” when the LCD screen is on and you get a preview of what the end result photo would be just like you describe isn’t possi…

Which is completely off-topic. The discussion is Viewfinders. Even your own reply above referenced Viewfinders specifically:

> There’s plenty of dSLRs with digital viewfinders

A digital Viewfinder actually has an LCD (or other type of digital display) within the Viewfinder assembly itself. It has nothing to do with the rear/main display at all.

Your other reply makes me think you don't know what the Viewfinder is. So here's some references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewfinder

https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/50028/whats-the-pr...

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#28

Post by pbalau »

jsjohnst wrote: post #26
pbalau wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why they need the mirrors then? (genuinely asking)

The mirror is for the small optical viewfinder window at the top. When you hit the button for live preview, the mirror is “locked up” and the main sensor powers a “live view” on the LCD screen which gives you a preview including aperture/iso/exposure/etc settings all applied just like on many mirrorless cameras. The reason the small viewfinder exists is because it draws power to keep the sensor on and the mirror lock…

> The mirror is for the small optical viewfinder

That's what I meant. It didn't occur to me that the bigger display is a viewfinder too...

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#29

Post by pbalau »

Someone1234 wrote: post #27
jsjohnst wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they cannot do what an LCD viewfinder can do which is to say completely "demo" what the final picture will look like (i.e. show the results of shutter speed and ISO settings). I’m definitely not talking about an overlay. I’m talking live full demo view on the LCD screen. The mirror is “locked up” when the LCD screen is on and you get a preview of what the end result photo would be just like you describe isn’t possi…

Which is completely off-topic. The discussion is Viewfinders. Even your own reply above referenced Viewfinders specifically: > There’s plenty of dSLRs with digital viewfinders A digital Viewfinder actually has an LCD (or other type of digital display) within the Viewfinder assembly itself. It has nothing to do with the rear/main display at all. Your other reply makes me think you don't know what the Viewfinder is. So…

To be pedantic, the topic started about "wayfinders". But that shows I'm an idiot, so let's not talk about that

Re: Ask HN: DSLR vs. MirrorLess cameras. Best resources for learning photography?

#30

Post by wanderr »

A lot of people saying it doesn't matter which one you go with, and that's mostly true, but "The best camera is the one that's with you" and mirrorless cameras are lighter and smaller. The weight and size difference may or may not be significant enough to determine how likely you are to bring your camera with you, but for me it's the difference between bringing it on a hike or leaving it at home.
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