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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#91

Post by [deleted] »

jstarfish wrote: post #84
shadowbained wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is, we don't even know what "fair" means. What do we mean by fair? Say we want to base fair on group outcomes, in which ways should we divide people into groups in order to perform some sort of balancing? Is hair color or texture a relevant way of subdividing people for instance? Are we being "fair" to red haired people? What if red haired people for some reason seem to be less likely to pay back loa…

The problem is the self-reinforcing, external factors that these algorithms don't take into account. If you feed a ML algorithm crime stats, it will conclude crime is directly correlated to being black, or being a former criminal. But this correlation only exists because of how we've chosen to conduct the policing of black communities and treatment of ex-cons upon release that produced the the training data in the fi…

[deleted]

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#92

Post by untog »

dominotw wrote: post #48
untog wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly this reply: https://twitter.com/OsitaNwanevu/status/1087841319219802113 Which shows that the original criticism of AOC was entirely disingenuous anyway.

not really, manipulating it via human intervention, like he is claiming, makes it opposite of "driven by math". He wants no human intervention in both cases.

...that's entirely the point. In one instance he is claiming it is manipulated by humans, in the next he is saying that it is math driven. He's changing his description of how algorithms work depending on the situation.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#93

Post by dragonwriter »

gambler wrote: post #74
tboyd47 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. AI is just tools of humans. Any system that can be achieved with humans can also be achieved with AI. These AIs take us backwards from our existing human systems in addition to being much harder to correct later. The supermarket theft example in the slides you linked to is a prime example. In what store in…

> Any system that can be achieved with humans can also be achieved with AI. I hope you meant it the other way around.

I think it's a rejection of “AI can't be racist”—if humans can be racist, the AI systems they employ can also be racist.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#94

Post by [deleted] »

paulmd wrote: post #47
shadowbained wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is, we don't even know what "fair" means. What do we mean by fair? Say we want to base fair on group outcomes, in which ways should we divide people into groups in order to perform some sort of balancing? Is hair color or texture a relevant way of subdividing people for instance? Are we being "fair" to red haired people? What if red haired people for some reason seem to be less likely to pay back loa…

> Is hair color or texture a relevant way of subdividing people for instance? Are we being "fair" to red haired people? What if red haired people for some reason seem to be less likely to pay back loans? Machine learning is going to be very good at identifying proxies for features we don't like, even if we don't directly provide those features. Weighting red hair color could be a proxy for the Irish, targeting hair t…

[deleted]

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#95

Post by throwaway2048 »

Nasrudith wrote: post #2

I thought we got over "the computer is never wrong" fallacy by the end of the 90s. Anyone involved with computing should know GIGO - Garbage In Garbage Out.

Apparently if you shove in a lot of garbage, subject it to a decision making process nobody can explain in detail, out the other end comes magic reliable data that if you question you obviously just have an agenda.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#96

Post by ptd »

stcredzero wrote: post #73
sam0x17 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is possible to make one that is representatively fair first and foremost, with procedurally fair and utilitarianism at 2nd and 3rd priorities.

representatively fair first and foremost, with procedurally fair and utilitarianism at 2nd and 3rd priorities This sounds like a description of Harvard's admission policies with regards to Asians.

Are Asians underrepresented at Harvard? Or if you’re referring to something else, can you elobarate?

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#97

Post by dleslie »

dgzl wrote: post #79
jpmcglone wrote: post #59

It’s more clear to me than ever now that the left and the right do not use the word “racist” the same way. The left thinks of racism in terms of outcome and the right thinks of racism in terms of intent. We could benefit from better language around these concepts, and honest dialogue about them too.

> We could benefit from better language around these concepts I believe this is a very under-rated problem today's public is facing. Not just these concepts, but many political terms are misused in today's climate, making for a conversationally ignorant population.

I feel like a writer once discussed the power that exists in limiting and controlling the language used in public discourse... /s

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#98

Post by danso »

jstanley wrote: post #88
cmiles74 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thinking of racism in terms of the intent is a way to take the issue less seriously, to force the issue into the realm of opinions and beliefs. If the intent of the perpetrator is the deciding factor, then it is always arguable that perpetrator's intent was not specifically racist; perhaps it was driven by a misunderstanding, etc. Since it was informed by misunderstanding, it isn't racist. And so on. It's an old tact…

Racism is discrimination based on race, everything else is not racism.

How does that address the parent commenter’s assertion? Discrimination, whether intended or not, has the same outcome for the discrimated party.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#99

Post by cbg0 »

dvtrn wrote: post #77
sayokuchinkasu wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

low key sexism allegation

Are people really making new accounts on the spot here to comment in these kinds of threads to avoid having disagreeable ideas traced back to their main accounts?

In an age when people doxx you and call your employer to ask them to fire you because you upset their delicate sensibilities, it is somewhat understandable to be paranoid.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#100

Post by EpicEng »

benj111 wrote: post #54
kauffj wrote: post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

I wouldn't say its impossible. They may happen to align, you cant force it though.

If there exists a scenario where it fails then yes, it is impossible. Just because something works the way you intend it to in some specific case doesn't mean it works in the general case (and the general case is what matters here.)
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