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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#71

Post by stcredzero »

gyrgtyn wrote: post #62
shadowbained wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been advocating for the rights of my own group "left handed 1/64 cherokee Americans with hazel eyes and slighly wavy brown hair" forever and I've been STUNNED at how quick people are to ignore the systemic bias against us. Some other categories of people seem to be doing much better than us, which is only explainable from systemic bias. Unless we are down with being complicit in a "right handed non partially che…

What are you trying to accomplish here?

I think it's a demonstration of how identity politics can result in ever more fractionated interest groups. If you keep going with the finer and finer divisions, one might suppose that one must stop at the level of individual people. (1 Kings 3:16-28 not withstanding.) Then one needs to come up with a way of adjudicating between the conflicting interests of different individuals, based on individual rights.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#72

Post by zozbot123 »

tunesmith wrote: post #66
jpmcglone wrote: post #55

It just dawned on me that the left and right absolutely do not think of “racist” exactly the same. The left looks at outcome and the right looks at intent. We need better words.

Those words are "systemic" or "implicit" or "institutional", etc. All you really need is a proof or example that racist/sexist outcomes are possible even when there is no overt intent. And there are plenty of examples like that out there. Failure to accept that those examples exist, however, is something beyond just looking at intent instead of outcome.

There's plenty of "systemic" racism/sexism/etc. coming from the left, though. Social engineering in general is a recipe for every kind of unintended consequences at the "systemic/institutional" level, and the left is huge on social engineering.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#73

Post by stcredzero »

sam0x17 wrote: post #17
kauffj wrote: post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

But it is possible to make one that is representatively fair first and foremost, with procedurally fair and utilitarianism at 2nd and 3rd priorities.

representatively fair first and foremost, with procedurally fair and utilitarianism at 2nd and 3rd priorities

This sounds like a description of Harvard's admission policies with regards to Asians.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#74

Post by gambler »

tboyd47 wrote: post #65
kauffj wrote: post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

> There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. AI is just tools of humans. Any system that can be achieved with humans can also be achieved with AI. These AIs take us backwards from our existing human systems in addition to being much harder to correct later. The supermarket theft example in the slides you linked to is a prime example. In what store in…

> Any system that can be achieved with humans can also be achieved with AI.

I hope you meant it the other way around.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#75

Post by tunesmith »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #26

Ok. Lets assume this is true. (Note: I'm biased in that I accept this as true) So, as someone who has possibly implemented racist/sexist/ageist algorithms, how do I: 1. Detect if I'm running a said algorithm (whats the % racism/sexism/ageism I can do before bad?) 2. Run an open dataset to detect said problems 3. Prevent overfit with the proposed dataset from #2 4. Correct said algorithm to reduce bias What's my way f…

Not sure you can do it mathematically/statistically, or at least you can't guarantee that, and I think that's part of the point of the critique.

What's better is to explicitly justify the reasons behind why the algorithm was written/used, surface the assumptions, and periodically/regularly challenge those assumptions to see if they are still true.

For example, a bunch of like-minded settlers settle a new geographical area, and then make governmental decisions via some fair consensus algorithm among the people in the government. The surrounding population gets more diverse. The government continues to make decisions the same way it always has, using the same people. The algorithm is sound, but the underlying assumption (that the algorithm/government fairly represents the surrounding population) has become wrong over time.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#76

Post by ousta »

Define please what is racist at an instant T. 10 years from here (hell even 2 years) what is not racist today will be totally racist. even Ocasion Cortez will probably rank as a racist by then. If the algorithm should predict what is racist or not a good model would say "at the end everything is racist even the bit as he is not inclusive enough with his two genders"

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#77

Post by dvtrn »

sayokuchinkasu wrote: post #60
shadowbained wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of critique are you trying to make of "this community?" Are the words "he is right" in our vocabulary?

low key sexism allegation

Are people really making new accounts on the spot here to comment in these kinds of threads to avoid having disagreeable ideas traced back to their main accounts?

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#78

Post by maceurt »

jpmcglone wrote: post #59

It’s more clear to me than ever now that the left and the right do not use the word “racist” the same way. The left thinks of racism in terms of outcome and the right thinks of racism in terms of intent. We could benefit from better language around these concepts, and honest dialogue about them too.

What I get from people on the left is that an unequal outcome is indicative of racism, however subtle that racism is. The only other explanations for an unequal outcome are biological differences between races (do not want to get into that) and races haves advantages over others from past history.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#79

Post by dgzl »

jpmcglone wrote: post #59

It’s more clear to me than ever now that the left and the right do not use the word “racist” the same way. The left thinks of racism in terms of outcome and the right thinks of racism in terms of intent. We could benefit from better language around these concepts, and honest dialogue about them too.

> We could benefit from better language around these concepts

I believe this is a very under-rated problem today's public is facing. Not just these concepts, but many political terms are misused in today's climate, making for a conversationally ignorant population.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#80

Post by arcaster »

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #57
mAEStro-paNDa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why's that?

“I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct, than about being morally right”

But to be "morally" right you have to have an ample understanding of what is and is not explicitly fact that's actually based in reality. Otherwise, the consensus of what fact is becomes irrelevant and the guise of morality simply becomes little more than barbed wire or nails wrapped around the baseball bat of which ever narrative or ideology our leaders intend to pursue...

Even as a very progressive young person, AOC's lack of composure and basic logic is deeply troubling.

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