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Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

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Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#41

Post by gaius »

pluies wrote: post #8

This is off-topic, but I'm amazed by the descriptions at the end of TFA (I know, I know, it's a press release, but still...) Oracle is the world’s most complete, open and integrated business software and hardware systems company. (...) Let's grant integrated and complete, but definitely not "open". Though this is dwarfed by Apple's incredible self-praise: Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world,…

You're using the wrong definition. "Open" in this context is the same as OpenVMS, Openstep, OpenLook, Openview, yadda yadda. Open standard, not open source.

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#42

Post by apl »

larsberg wrote: post #17
kevindication wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iPad is magical?

Indeed. And seemingly animate as well, since it "is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices." Would've thought that was the folks making and using them, but hey, I'm not the one wearing the turtlenecks. (And yes, I own an iPad. But probably not the one that is going around defining things. Other than words. With a dictionary app.)

It's an absolutely acceptable use of the verb "define." There's nothing about it that requires an animate subject.

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#43

Post by DannoHung »

tertius wrote: post #29
GHFigs wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bit of humility maybe? Why? If you think your product is the best, say so. If you think your product is revolutionary, say so. If you think your product is magical, say so. If you think your product is defining the future, say so. The only reason I can see to criticize a PR footer like that is if you think the company doesn't actually think of itself that way and is just trying to bullshit the reader.

As a side note, I wouldn't call Apple products "magical", maybe to the extent that they make people's money disappear. But that can be explained, somehow, without magic too. I think the focus of his reply should have been on Jobs' giant ego, which is undeniable.

I dunno man, I play with my iPad quite a bit and it really does seem just about sufficiently advanced.

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#44

Post by va_coder »

rbanffy wrote: post #37
va_coder wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"What it doesn't protect you from is trademark issues if you claim whatever thing you have is Java." There's more to it than that. If I call it Dalvik, like Google did, why would I get a lawsuit? Edit: I have to say I don't think I even understand what open source means anymore. If I release an open source product, but then say you can only make modifications and sell it if you pass my tests (which I don't make free…

> If I release an open source product, but then say you can only make modifications and sell it if you pass my tests (which I don't make freely available), it's not really open right? I believe your restriction on making derived works conflicts with just about every free and open-source license out there. What Sun did and Oracle does prohibit you from doing is calling something that doesn't pass the non-freely-availa…

I think reversing a linked-list using recursion is a walk in the park compared to trying to understand patent/trademark law for software.

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#45

Post by ugh »

RickHull wrote: post #40
ugh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't understand why so many “techy” people freak out as soon as Apple dares to use the word “magical”. That's certainly much better than calling everything “innovative” and it is self explanatory if you don't play stupid. Apple deserves to be lauded for not using overly boring adjectives once in their boilerplate blurb.

> Apple deserves to be lauded for not using overly boring adjectives once in their boilerplate blurb. Plaudits for using hyperbole? Oh laud, gag me with a spoon, please.

If a company wants to dazzle me with bombastic statements they can at least try to not be boring.

(I’m also not sure whether it’s hyperbole. I would guess that many people working at Apple actually believe the boilerplate. That might make them deluded but not hyperbolic.)

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#46

Post by ig1 »

rbanffy wrote: post #32
ig1 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "clean", only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit) get the patent waiver, if you modify the JRE and don't get it re-certified then you lose the patent protection. And to get it certified you have to agree to a restrictive licence from Oracle. Sun promised Apache to make the TCK available under an open licence but this never happened. IBM was previously putting pressure on Sun/Oracle to make…

> only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit) get the patent waiver, No. That's not true. As long as your code is derived from OpenJDK (and unavoidably licensed under GPL), you are protected from patent lawsuits from Oracle (for technology contributed to OpenJDK). What it doesn't protect you from is trademark issues if you claim whatever thing you have is Java. You can say "pretty much compatible with…

It's ambiguous. Oracle's not the only company with patents in Java technology, the TCK patent protection clause is stronger than that in the GPL, in that it give you protection against non-Oracle patents that are part of Java. It's arguable that Oracle implicitly licences these as part of the GPL patent clause, but it's not watertight.

Third-party implementations such as Harmony (and presumably GNU Classpath) obviously don't have patent protection because they neither derive from OpenJDK nor have a TCK licence. Java isn't open until anyone can freely implement it.

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#47

Post by samps »

This bit is hilarious:

The best way for our users to always have the most up to date and secure version of Java will be to get it directly from Oracle.

Contrast that with a recent quote from Bill Evans:

We're happy to continue to support Flash on the Mac, and the best way for users to always have the most up to date and secure version is to download it directly from Adobe.

It's like they're just toying with the tech press.

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#48

Post by cosmicray »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #18
yakisoft wrote: post #15

This is really Oracle's news rather than Apple's.

It's actually a more important announcement for Apple though in light of their stopping development of their own JVM. This allows them to still be behind it without having to actually do the work.

It also means one bug repository, instead of two. Bugs can now (or soon) be filed against OpenJDK, and not in Apple's radar bugbase.

Re: Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X

#49

Post by markkanof »

ianlevesque wrote: post #38
mtinkerhess wrote: post #30

Does this mean there's some chance you'll be able to use Java for Mac App Store apps?

No they state right in the Mac App Store guidelines that you cannot.

Apple has certainly back-pedaled on App Store guidelines before. Lately they seem to start with the most restrictive set of guidelines to set a precedent and then ease things as they see fit. It's always easier to start strict and then relax over time, than it is to go the other way. Especially when the topic is programming languages/frameworks where over time a large code base can be built up.

Perhaps now that Java will not be considered deprecated from the platform, it will be allowed for us in App Store applications.

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