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Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

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Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#51

Post by staplers »

lsiebert wrote: post #44
tux1968 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure. But there are countless other examples of people being conquered too, all over the world, and not just by Europeans. There is no justification needed, other than that's what humans did back then. It was a much more primitive and brutal example of survival of the fittest. And as much as it offends our sensibilities now, it is the very path that leads us to where we find ourselves today. We can struggle to be…

"But there are countless other examples of people being conquered too, all over the world, and not just by Europeans." An example of the relatively rare Tu Quoque logical fallacy in the wild! Or maybe you weren't arguing that it was okay because non Europeans did it, in which case it's more of a red herring. "There is no justification needed, other than that's what humans did back then. It was a much more primitive a…

Refreshing to see another historically educated mind in this thread.

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#52

Post by staplers »

tux1968 wrote: post #42
staplers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm saying that nature set up the octagon, and our ancestors fought it out. If you believe in evolution / natural selection being a force to hone the most well adapted creatures possible, then as unsavory as it is, all that mayhem and loss of life did play a role in getting us here today. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

So, if I killed you today, that would be fine because "nature set up the octagon"? I seem to have wandered onto an UFC/MMA forum or something..

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#53

Post by mirimir »

OK, so indigenous civilizations in the Americas go back at least 20-30 kyr before European invasion. And it seems that they had more or less reached equilibrium with their environment.

Sure, they used fire to modify the environment. In the Midwest, for example, they pushed the prairie-forest boundary several hundred miles north. And in the East, they burned to keep down forest undergrowth.

And sure, mammoths disappeared. But the buffalo did OK, until the Europeans. More prairie arguably benefited them.

So it all sounds quite idyllic, in a way.

But, conversely, they didn't invent wheels. Or glass. And only some metalworking. And mostly for decoration, not weapons.

I wonder why that was. I've read Jared Diamond, but it all seems so contrived. Maybe it was just that they didn't trade a lot with China ;)

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#54

Post by paradoxparalax »

mirimir wrote: post #53

OK, so indigenous civilizations in the Americas go back at least 20-30 kyr before European invasion. And it seems that they had more or less reached equilibrium with their environment. Sure, they used fire to modify the environment. In the Midwest, for example, they pushed the prairie-forest boundary several hundred miles north. And in the East, they burned to keep down forest undergrowth. And sure, mammoths disappea…

"I wonder why that was"

Maybe the old cliché: Necessity

oversimplified: when you already live in Heavens, you don't need to invent the Bible.

I have always Hated cliches since a very early age. At 40, I realized they are underestimated.

As Confucius maybe said ( I wasn't there) :

"The Man stops crawling and stand up to start walking at around age 40"

Confucius

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#55

Post by mirimir »

paradoxparalax wrote: post #54
mirimir wrote: post #53

OK, so indigenous civilizations in the Americas go back at least 20-30 kyr before European invasion. And it seems that they had more or less reached equilibrium with their environment. Sure, they used fire to modify the environment. In the Midwest, for example, they pushed the prairie-forest boundary several hundred miles north. And in the East, they burned to keep down forest undergrowth. And sure, mammoths disappea…

"I wonder why that was" Maybe the old cliché: Necessity oversimplified: when you already live in Heavens, you don't need to invent the Bible. I have always Hated cliches since a very early age. At 40, I realized they are underestimated. As Confucius maybe said ( I wasn't there) : "The Man stops crawling and stand up to start walking at around age 40" Confucius

Were the Americas really that idyllic?

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#57

Post by paradoxparalax »

mirimir wrote: post #55
paradoxparalax wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I wonder why that was" Maybe the old cliché: Necessity oversimplified: when you already live in Heavens, you don't need to invent the Bible. I have always Hated cliches since a very early age. At 40, I realized they are underestimated. As Confucius maybe said ( I wasn't there) : "The Man stops crawling and stand up to start walking at around age 40" Confucius

Were the Americas really that idyllic?

good point. Thanks for noting. So probably or surely there are other factors too.

Europe , for what I saw in Asterix comics, at least, looked pretty nice too. And was probably wonderful and beautiful and not that hostile, in real life.

But necessity is strong, very strong, in many situations.

There is the old Sufi tale ( if I recall, it is sufi )

"The old man came and killed the only cow the poor family relied to survived, for years of poverty. The family cried. Years later, the family said thank you to the old man, they are rich now"

Just a story, not trying to make any strong point.

Weather is the key, I think

off course, the world in my opinion, is better without swords and bullets and hypersonic gliders that burns to death thousands at a time. But some people think all tech are good things. each to their own.

and Comments, as paper, accepts anything you put on them. And words can be used to support anything.

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#58

Post by tux1968 »

staplers wrote: post #52
tux1968 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that nature set up the octagon, and our ancestors fought it out. If you believe in evolution / natural selection being a force to hone the most well adapted creatures possible, then as unsavory as it is, all that mayhem and loss of life did play a role in getting us here today. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

So, if I killed you today, that would be fine because "nature set up the octagon"? I seem to have wandered onto an UFC/MMA forum or something..

> So, if I killed you today, that would be fine because "nature set up the octagon"? I seem to have wandered onto an UFC/MMA forum or something..

As far as I can tell, the universe doesn't care if I live or die, so it's "fine" in that sense, yes. If there was some benefit to you and your progeny, you'd be wise to do it. You might have to navigate our modern legal system mind you ;-) And of course humans are capable of cooperation too, I might be more valuable to you as an ally. Your call.

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#59

Post by UweSchmidt »

max76 wrote: post #21
joecool1029 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The great pyramid is rather simple as far as art and cultural complexity goes. That may be so, but it remains as a feat of project unmatched in their history, the one great wonder that survived. I am not sure how many would be able to name the pyramids that came after. There's a huge amount of precision involved and a huge amount of effort required of the culture to complete. Similarly you could argue that with spa…

> What’s most going to be remembered of our culture in 5000 years? There is a good chance that computers will have an uninterrupted existence for the next 5000 years, and we’ll be remembered for creating the first network with 1billion+ users, similarly to how the Romans are remembered for their roads and aqueducts. This is a particularly exciting case because large amounts of data we generate could survive! In the c…

It has been suggested that since we have exhausted the easily accessible ressources on this planet, human civilization would have a hard time restarting from scratch.

Either this society continues (and solves huge environmental challenges along the way), or we have a scifi scenario, where a group of humans on faraway planets forget about old Earth, or no one will be able to remember or rediscover us.

Re: Indigenous civilizations are far older and more complex than history suggests

#60

Post by garmaine »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #22
garmaine wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK that’s a YouTube myth. The burial chamber is built into the structure of the pyramid, not mined out of it; there is no evidence of retrofitting. We’ve uncovered and dated work sites and living areas for the people who constructed it, which coincide with known old kingdom chronology. That theory also doesn’t explain why there happens to be exactly three major pyramids at that site with minor pyramids in numbers…

If that is a myth, it is older than Youtube. Unfortunately, unless we invent time travel or discover an important find, it is anyone's guess as if what you wrote (the established history as written by British archeologists) is correct.... it merely is the most popular theory at the moment.

Not British archeologists, although I’m not sure why that’s relevant. We don’t need time machines when we have radio-carbon dating of fires and refuse at work sites, scattered graffiti (e.g. “Khufu’s ____” as the name of a work gang stamped into the surface of an inner stone), and the later written chronologies.
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