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1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

theguardian.com

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Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#101

Post by elproxy »

eric_b wrote: post #47

Unpopular Opinion: There is no viable solution to climate change through policy or political action. No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Even people I know who are self-described ardent environmentalists still fly in planes frequently to all manner of touristy destinations so they can keep "collecting experiences." Shit, look at Paris. They champion this clima…

> ... to help pay for some the policies

Not quite. https://twitter.com/anatolium/status/1077225708659847168

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#102

Post by daxat_staglatz »

jakewins wrote: post #66
bryanlarsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty simple, viable solution. Carbon taxes. Yes, it's hard to get 195 countries to agree to implement a carbon tax, but you could have said the same thing about the ozone layer / CFC problem.

The problem with carbon taxes is that they are regressive. Carbon taxation plays out as a consumption tax on goods people consume in roughly the same quantities independent of income. Take fuel as an example. The average american adult consumes about 550 gallons of gas a year for driving. It doesn't matter substantially how wealthy you are - there are only so many hours in the day to drive. A $20/Metric Ton CO2eq car…

There is a simple solution to this problem: redistribute part or all of the carbon tax money. While it will likely not be possible to ensure that there is no loser among the poor (ie. the ones that buy the most carbon-intensive goods), it could make this number as low as possible.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#103

Post by ileri62 »

eric_b wrote: post #47

Unpopular Opinion: There is no viable solution to climate change through policy or political action. No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Even people I know who are self-described ardent environmentalists still fly in planes frequently to all manner of touristy destinations so they can keep "collecting experiences." Shit, look at Paris. They champion this clima…

what an incredibly stupid comment. How many boots are you licking on a daily basis?

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#104

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

dpark wrote: post #77
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Seriously? Who are you to say that of others?! I'm French (Parisian, actually) and I keep demonstrating with yellow vests to try and force political action so we can save the biosphere. I've been giving up on my personal comfort for years to reduce my environment footprint and help others do the same: I don't go skiing anym…

> I really want to scream a big FCK you to your face for saying that "No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet."". Can you understand that? You seem to have given up any hope in political change, but please, don't speak for other. You expect a political solution but your immediate reaction to someone expressing a differing opinion is overt hostility. I don’t know how…

That isn't my intention at all. English is not my first language so it might not help but please bear with me.

I intentionally said "I really want to scream" and not "Let me say" because I certainly do not want to be hostile. I shared the point of view of the person I responded to, so no, I really did not express hostility but an invitation to understand that some people actually are giving up "their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of the plane".

>I don’t know how to say this politely.

Look, you're writing something very similar to my "I want to" with this "I don't know but". I'm sure we both have good intentions.

> You’re not a good advocate for the political process if you can’t calmly discuss the opposing viewpoint.

I do not pretend to be a good advocate here. I'm trying to have someone consider that the actions of others are sincere. That people are actually fighting and giving up comfort (which the OP comment denied). I don't want to complain because I'm well off myself (good job, very secured financially, etc) but there are so many people who would not act if we keep denying the possibility of change and insists in making other choices non-existent or insincere. That would have be the case a younger me, that's why I'm quite emotional. It's just my feeling and I understand that it may not be welcome.

>At no point did you provide evidence that a political solution is viable.

Again, that's not my point. I could comment on that, but I reacted to the assumption that "No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of the planet". This is a very bad starting point to discuss this because the last decade of my life shows the contrary. I only complain that stating the contrary is false (logically) and morally wrong (who can speak for others about their intention?). Why do you think I'm a martyr? I certainly don't feel like one (again, I live in Paris and have enough time and resources to care not about my personal situation but climate change and poor workers who can't bear taxes). Nor do you I want anyone to be a martyr because I know we would have a violent regime change (probably not for the best) if people start feeling like they would have to die to be heard.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#105

Post by mac01021 »

jakewins wrote: post #66
bryanlarsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty simple, viable solution. Carbon taxes. Yes, it's hard to get 195 countries to agree to implement a carbon tax, but you could have said the same thing about the ozone layer / CFC problem.

The problem with carbon taxes is that they are regressive. Carbon taxation plays out as a consumption tax on goods people consume in roughly the same quantities independent of income. Take fuel as an example. The average american adult consumes about 550 gallons of gas a year for driving. It doesn't matter substantially how wealthy you are - there are only so many hours in the day to drive. A $20/Metric Ton CO2eq car…

They need not be regressive.

For starters, high income people tend to have much greater carbon footprints. I, in the top decile, probably quintuple my carbon footprint by engaging in a little bit of unnecessary air travel (living in New England, in 2018 I went once to Shanghai, once to Puerto Rico, and once to Montana). The average private jet owner probably has a carbon footprint 10x - 100x of mine.

Then, you have a tax and it _still_ turns out to be regressive (or even if it doesn't), you can use the tax revenue in a way that disproportionally benefits low income people.

The best policy (IMO) is a carbon fee-and-dividend, where all of the proceeds of the tax are redistributed evenly amongst all residents of the nation.

There is a bill in the US congress that would enact just this policy (https://energyinnovationact.org/) (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/7173). If you like the policy, let your congressmen know. And everyone else too.

And it _really_ is the best policy. Even if it did nothing to reduce emissions, it's a matter of justice. I won't tell you that you can't fly across the country every single weekend or emit a gigaton of carbon mining bitcoin but, if you do, you _really_ should reimburse me and my 2-year-old daughter for the harm you're doing to our futures.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#106

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

jellicle wrote: post #27

I guess we're going to do this every year now. Like last year: if the politicians gathered at this conference agree and do anything - literally anything at all - to combat climate change that they wouldn't have done otherwise, the effect of their plane flights will be dwarfed by whatever thing, no matter how tiny, they agreed to do. "Leaders working on world hunger problem ate lunch, exacerbating problem" "Leaders wo…

> "Leaders working on world hunger problem ate lunch, exacerbating problem"

> "Leaders working on global clean water drank three pitchers of water"

In both of those scenarios, the goal is to make it possible so everybody can do those things. The leaders working on world hunger, want everybody to be able to eat lunch like them. The leaders working on global clean water want everybody to be able to drink 3 pitchers of water without having to worry if they will get sick.

The leaders at the climate conference are discussing policies that would encourage/mandate that fewer people took plan trips, and that private jets were more expensive to fly.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#107

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

mac01021 wrote: post #94
TheArcane wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call this "overt hostility".

"I really want to scream a big F*CK you to your face" is certainly more overt than covert. Still, I sympathize with the sentiment, the attitude of despair is EXTREMELY frustrating.

I "wanted to" because of frustration, but my entire comment is intended to express the frustration, explain it and make sure we can better understand one another. Really the opposite of hostility but I certainly failed to express myself correctly. I'll try to do better next time.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#108

Post by mikeash »

the_common_man wrote: post #37
Retric wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t think of a single case in human history where indiduals acting alone made a real difference in widespread issues like climate change. So suggesting it starts with individual steps seems wildly inaccurate.

On the contrary, big things are always started by individuals. I can't think of a single case where all nations have 'agreed' and magically solved some global issue.

First thing that comes to mind is Nazis. Imagine some American guy gearing up and landing in France all by himself instead of trying to get his government to intervene.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#109

Post by mikeash »

ams6110 wrote: post #9
mikeash wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just hard, it’s also pointless unless we all do it together. If these people had refrained from making the trip, it would have no real impact on climate change. It’s a collective action problem.

Someone has to set the example. Preferably someone influential.

Setting an example is neither necessary nor sufficient to solve the problem.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#110

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

lagadu wrote: post #48
makerofspoons wrote: post #12

The solution should include a carbon tax or fee to make such behavior uneconomical. Could Switzerland impose a carbon fee upon landing a private aircraft at a Swiss airport?

Why would Switzerland effectively offer a negative incentive towards people holding conferences there? Are you advocating that they should make attending climate conferences become more expensive and harder to attend?

As if the cost of traveling to Davos was a problem for people who fly private jets...

Edit: the idea isn't to tax air travel to death, but to have a sufficient level of tax so that ordinary citizens can accept the environmental taxes that they must pay on polluting activities (some of which they can't avoid -- e.g commuting to work which is a necessity, contrary to fly private jets).

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