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1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

theguardian.com

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Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#71

Post by Diederich »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #65
eric_b wrote: post #47

Unpopular Opinion: There is no viable solution to climate change through policy or political action. No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Even people I know who are self-described ardent environmentalists still fly in planes frequently to all manner of touristy destinations so they can keep "collecting experiences." Shit, look at Paris. They champion this clima…

>No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Seriously? Who are you to say that of others?! I'm French (Parisian, actually) and I keep demonstrating with yellow vests to try and force political action so we can save the biosphere. I've been giving up on my personal comfort for years to reduce my environment footprint and help others do the same: I don't go skiing anym…

> No one

I understand your anger here, but I'm 99% sure that the person you're replying to didn't mean that literally. 'No one' is often used to mean 'almost no one'.

I'm sure you'll agree that your behaviour is well into 1% territory, as an overall percentage of people.

You are to be applauded of course.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#72

Post by normal_man »

rthomas6 wrote: post #68
normal_man wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be an extinction event, it will be a gradual decline where the global poor suffer and die by the millions. "People will need to move" is not a realistic solution for massive amounts of people; they will starve, and drown. It's not happening because your friends fly to Burning Man, it's happening because global corporations are seeking profit above all else. Climate change cannot be combatted while capitalism…

You're kind of talking around the parent comment's point. Global corporations don't make that profit in a vacuum, they do it by selling people things they want. Barring huge technological progress, our current way of life has to change to sufficiently lower climate emissions. Regardless of what kind of government system controls industries, for carbon emissions to be sufficiently low, a lot of our current luxuries mu…

True but your average joe has far less control over that infrastructure than the corporations profiting from it. When you have to drive to get to work because oil companies leverage their power to make public rail impossible, are you really making a choice to consume that product? I resent the idea that average people just getting by are expected to upend their life, while to expect a corporation to moderate their behavior is apparently absurd.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#73

Post by makerofspoons »

lagadu wrote: post #48
makerofspoons wrote: post #12

The solution should include a carbon tax or fee to make such behavior uneconomical. Could Switzerland impose a carbon fee upon landing a private aircraft at a Swiss airport?

Why would Switzerland effectively offer a negative incentive towards people holding conferences there? Are you advocating that they should make attending climate conferences become more expensive and harder to attend?

No, I'm proposing that they encourage more eco-friendly alternatives that also make attending the conference cheaper such as telecommuting or using rail.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#74

Post by rthomas6 »

jakewins wrote: post #66
bryanlarsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty simple, viable solution. Carbon taxes. Yes, it's hard to get 195 countries to agree to implement a carbon tax, but you could have said the same thing about the ozone layer / CFC problem.

The problem with carbon taxes is that they are regressive. Carbon taxation plays out as a consumption tax on goods people consume in roughly the same quantities independent of income. Take fuel as an example. The average american adult consumes about 550 gallons of gas a year for driving. It doesn't matter substantially how wealthy you are - there are only so many hours in the day to drive. A $20/Metric Ton CO2eq car…

The end result of this is that driving a lot and excessive heating and cooling of spaces are more of an expensive luxury. The problem is people see owning and driving a personal vehicle as something like a right instead of the extravagant over-the-top luxury it really is. And once someone gets used to something, they get really angry when something threatens to take it away, pretty much no matter what it is. That's one of the biggest pitfalls of human nature.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#75

Post by bryanlarsen »

jakewins wrote: post #66
bryanlarsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a pretty simple, viable solution. Carbon taxes. Yes, it's hard to get 195 countries to agree to implement a carbon tax, but you could have said the same thing about the ozone layer / CFC problem.

The problem with carbon taxes is that they are regressive. Carbon taxation plays out as a consumption tax on goods people consume in roughly the same quantities independent of income. Take fuel as an example. The average american adult consumes about 550 gallons of gas a year for driving. It doesn't matter substantially how wealthy you are - there are only so many hours in the day to drive. A $20/Metric Ton CO2eq car…

Yes, we get it. People don't like taxes. So how come we have income taxes and VAT? Because the government needs the money. A carbon tax kills two birds with one stone. What if France had eliminated their VAT at the same time they implemented the carbon tax? The two taxes are roughly similar in terms of being regressive.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#76

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

jakewins wrote: post #69
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Seriously? Who are you to say that of others?! I'm French (Parisian, actually) and I keep demonstrating with yellow vests to try and force political action so we can save the biosphere. I've been giving up on my personal comfort for years to reduce my environment footprint and help others do the same: I don't go skiing anym…

.. but I thought the yellow vest protests directly lead to rolling back legislation meant to increase prices of CO2-polluting fuel, so that renewable fuels would be able to compete? https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/12/fr...

It's far more complicated than that.

Most of those who suffer from those tax do NOT have any alternative to their heavily-polluting cars. Rich people can pay such tax or go full EV but you cannot compel the poor to pay such taxes that will make them just poorer.

When you already have trouble feeding yourself and your family, you go crazy and you vote Macron out. Believe me, if Macron keeps lowering the taxes on the extra rich and insists on making the poor pay high taxes for indispensable fuels, we'll get the far right pretty quickly and a far, far worst government in power that will happily destroy any environmental regulation. We've probably passed that point already but there isn't many other options but to force Macron to stop his crazy politics (he lowered the tax on capital gains to a point where I pay far less tax on my stock gains than on my actual work, it's really absurd).

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#77

Post by dpark »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #65
eric_b wrote: post #47

Unpopular Opinion: There is no viable solution to climate change through policy or political action. No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Even people I know who are self-described ardent environmentalists still fly in planes frequently to all manner of touristy destinations so they can keep "collecting experiences." Shit, look at Paris. They champion this clima…

>No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Seriously? Who are you to say that of others?! I'm French (Parisian, actually) and I keep demonstrating with yellow vests to try and force political action so we can save the biosphere. I've been giving up on my personal comfort for years to reduce my environment footprint and help others do the same: I don't go skiing anym…

> I really want to scream a big FCK you to your face for saying that "No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet."". Can you understand that? You seem to have given up any hope in political change, but please, don't speak for other.

You expect a political solution but your immediate reaction to someone expressing a differing opinion is overt hostility.

I don’t know how to say this politely. You’re not a good advocate for the political process if you can’t calmly discuss the opposing viewpoint.

At no point did you provide evidence that a political solution is viable. You just complained about others and explained how you’re an environmentalist martyr. Most people don’t want to be martyrs.

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#78

Post by sonofaragorn »

jakewins wrote: post #69
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Seriously? Who are you to say that of others?! I'm French (Parisian, actually) and I keep demonstrating with yellow vests to try and force political action so we can save the biosphere. I've been giving up on my personal comfort for years to reduce my environment footprint and help others do the same: I don't go skiing anym…

.. but I thought the yellow vest protests directly lead to rolling back legislation meant to increase prices of CO2-polluting fuel, so that renewable fuels would be able to compete? https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/12/fr...

Yep, that was my understanding as well

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46439469

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#79

Post by Zealotux »

eric_b wrote: post #47

Unpopular Opinion: There is no viable solution to climate change through policy or political action. No one wants to give up their own personal comfort or lifestyle for the sake of "the planet." Even people I know who are self-described ardent environmentalists still fly in planes frequently to all manner of touristy destinations so they can keep "collecting experiences." Shit, look at Paris. They champion this clima…

>Shit, look at Paris. [...] the government raises taxes on fuel to help pay for some the policies, the people riot and destroy things and the government backs down.

The fuel tax was only the trigger of a much larger discontent of the population, more so: only 19% of that tax increase will actually be used for the energetic transition (I could post sources on that but they're in French, ask away if you want to have a look). It sounds like you're assuming that the French population is an hegemonic group of people, but even among the yellow vests you'll find people fighting for various, and often contradictory goals.

Now I don't disagree with the general feeling of your message. The main issue to me, which is mostly empirical, being that the very people who are mostly responsible for climate change will be the very last to actually suffer from it.

Is climate change the great filter?

Re: 1500 Private Jets Fly to Davos for Climate Talks

#80

Post by rthomas6 »

normal_man wrote: post #72
rthomas6 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're kind of talking around the parent comment's point. Global corporations don't make that profit in a vacuum, they do it by selling people things they want. Barring huge technological progress, our current way of life has to change to sufficiently lower climate emissions. Regardless of what kind of government system controls industries, for carbon emissions to be sufficiently low, a lot of our current luxuries mu…

True but your average joe has far less control over that infrastructure than the corporations profiting from it. When you have to drive to get to work because oil companies leverage their power to make public rail impossible, are you really making a choice to consume that product? I resent the idea that average people just getting by are expected to upend their life, while to expect a corporation to moderate their be…

I do think it's absurd to expect them to moderate their behavior without regulation. If it made their products more expensive to do so (which it would), they'll just lose market share to some other less scrupulous corporation selling the same thing for cheaper.

A corporation's literal only job is to seek profits above all else. In the US, that's a legal requirement (Edit: I was very wrong about this). That doesn't make a corporation some subversive evil entity, more like an algorithm that finds solutions optimized for one variable. They do what they do because it's what makes them the most money. And remember, they have to operate this way (Edit: I was wrong about legal requirements on this).

So we can change the problem space by making it more expensive to behave in certain ways. Aka, regulation/emissions taxes.

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