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Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

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Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#251
TLDR: the answer might be https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_crisis

I‘m coding for almost 20 yrs now and used to think the same: „when will the bubble pop?“, then it was „how long can this go on?“ until I ended up with „ok, that’s weird, what the heck is keeping this bubble from popping?”

I was told throughout these two decades that I’ll be replaced by some offshore developer from India within the next 5 yrs max. It never even came close.

To me it was against common sense, to climb up so much the social ladder like I was fortunate enough to do, just by being exposed to programming.

Then, I saw a talk given by Uncle Bob where he spoke about the history of software development. It was interesting throughout (like that the rate of female programmers was almost 50% before the dawn of CS degrees), but he also touched the “bubble” issue briefly.

He turned my perma-bearishness into ongoing curiosity: That we’re not in a bubble but in an ongoing “software crisis”. A crisis existing basically since the invention of programming languages. The theory has it that here aren’t enough developers available and may never will be. Is it demand-side economics on steroids what’s behind it? I don’t know.

But what struck me maybe the most is that I’ve never even heard about this theory, and never did any of my much more experienced and better programming friends and colleagues. The fact they didn’t knew kind of underlines the theory: there is so much demand that there is simply no time nor need to even tinker with the history of our craft.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing artificial about the real estate "bubble" in the Bay Area. Prices are set by supply and demand, both in salaries and real estate. Real estate prices are high, because the Bay Area is a very desirable place to live, there are people who can and will pay the high price, and the supply of housing is low. Salaries are high because big companies are fighting for talent (demand), and the supply of talent i…

The thing that makes it a bubble is that the supply is artificially constrained by local zoning laws. Eventually people will be fed up with the situation and they'll vote for a government that'll allow more development, at which point housing prices will plummet.

> Eventually people will be fed up with the situation and they'll vote for a government that'll allow more development, at which point housing prices will plummet.

Clearly you don't live in CA. Homeowners vote more than renters, and they will never intentionally vote for policies that will put them underwater on their own mortgages.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#253

I've always wondered if the salaries in the industry are just keeping pace to what all salaries should be at. What if they're not the bubble, but instead everything else is just lagging? I guess that depends on if you think workers should be able to purchase a home where they live, pay for child care, and not live paycheck to paycheck.

In an irrational market, rational decisions seem irrational? Interesting hypothesis.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each FAANG will have on average, 10k engineers? That's..really low. FB has around that many, Google has like 50k, and from what I've heard Amazon has about the same number or more. Considering that everyone I know got >= $100k base out of undergrad regardless of location I don't think it's as uncommon as you would think anymore.

Well, Google has offices around the world. In their Warsaw office, for example, the normal salary is definitely way below $100k.

What makes you think that?

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#255

four ppl from my extended family have quit their jobs and joined "code school" to become programmers this year. None of them have any programming background.

I did that once. It was great. Got me to my dream job (spoilers: I do not write code for a living).

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each FAANG will have on average, 10k engineers? That's..really low. FB has around that many, Google has like 50k, and from what I've heard Amazon has about the same number or more. Considering that everyone I know got >= $100k base out of undergrad regardless of location I don't think it's as uncommon as you would think anymore.

> Google has like 50k Does this include the now >50% TVC "non-headcount" as recently reported?

TVCs at Google are not writing software. They are making sandwiches.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#257
post #2

As someone who hires programmers, no. It is difficult to hire good people. The only way I can successfully hire low-cost programmers is by building a system/machine for creating and releasing software that does not require a high level of intelligence/creativity. The only people that can make high margins in programming-heavy industries are those who can do this or some sort of defensible moat. As a programmer myself…

I am still basically an entry-level developer even though I've been doing it for 30 years (20 for money).

The way I see this playing out is, something like behavior-driven development (BDD) where the business folks describe the functionality they desire, and programmers write up the backend logic. Then as AI progresses to AGI, a higher and higher percentage of that backend code will be generated by machine learning.

So over the next 10 years, I expect to see more specialization, probably whole careers revolving around managing containers like Docker. There will be cookie cutter solutions for most algorithms. So the money will be in refactoring the inevitable deluge of bad code that keeps profitable businesses running.

But in 5 years we'll start to see automated solutions that record all of the inputs, outputs and logs of these containers and reverse engineer the internal logic into something that looks more like a spreadsheet or lisp. At that point people will be hand-tuning the various edge cases and failure modes.

In about 10 years, AI will be powerful enough to pattern match the millions of examples in open source and StackOverflow and extrapolate solutions for these edge cases. At that point, most programmers today will be out of a job unless they can rise to a higher level of abstraction and design the workflows better than the business folks.

Or, we can throw all of this at any of the myriad problems facing society and finally solve them for once. Which calls into question the need for money, or hierarchy, or even authority, which could very well trigger a dystopian backlash to suppress us all. But I digress.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the difference would be that dramatic (see Hollywood actors and athletes). Also, what's the point of 500K if you're prohibited from working on personal projects, open source and have non-competes, no vacation out leave time and NDAs to deal with? Maybe if you're willing to deal with it for a few years so you can retire early and loaded?

There are no non-competes in California, and most of the best paying tech companies have decent vacation policies (though maybe not as good as the norm in Sweden). Lots of people have hobbies other than coding, so they wouldn't mind not coding on personal projects after work. Is it really that hard to imagine that people might be willing to make fairly minor sacrifices in exchange for several hundred thousand dollars…

Issue is will you actually get those several hundred thousands for just "fairly minor sacrifices".

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#259
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the side of the employees, unions have proven themselves to be good means to improve the situation for employees. Here in Germany they definitely have helped in many industries. My comment was more about the companies though which may form cartels to drive down employee wages. Companies forming cartels is illegal, while unions are legal in many places.

If unions are the best way to improve compensation why do un-unionized FAANG employees get paid so much more than unionized developers in Europe?

Different Culture and engineers have a lower social status in Europe in general

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't keep a significant portion of the upside without taking on more risk.

> Privatizing profits and socializing losses refers to the practice of treating firms' earnings as the rightful property of their shareholders, while treating losses as a responsibility that society as a whole must shoulder, for example through taxpayer-funded subsidies or bailouts.

Not really related to what we're talking about here though?
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