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Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

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Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#11

Post by stunt »

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #2

I've been using my 15" 2017 MBP since it was released (so 1.5 years) with absolutely zero keyboard issues. And honestly, I like this keyboard much more than the previous generation. (I had a 15" Early 2013 MBP until I got my current one.) I'm not saying that my lack of issues negates the presence of issues for other people by any means, and I think that Apple's "repair" policy of "pay us hundreds of dollars to replac…

Key travel distance is what I don't like about new keyboards. It is almost like typing on the desk.

But, as I use a mechanical keyboard, and because I had so many troubles with USB-C-dongle-hell, the keyboard is not my main criticism. https://mashable.com/2018/03/14/dongle-hell-2018/

I'd understand if they sacrifice keyboard on a normal device to make it thinner and nicer since the average user wouldn't care and they might even love it more when it is thinner! But, they shouldn't call it PRO then because for most of the PRO users keyboard is the main interface.

Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#12

Post by bluedino »

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #2

I've been using my 15" 2017 MBP since it was released (so 1.5 years) with absolutely zero keyboard issues. And honestly, I like this keyboard much more than the previous generation. (I had a 15" Early 2013 MBP until I got my current one.) I'm not saying that my lack of issues negates the presence of issues for other people by any means, and I think that Apple's "repair" policy of "pay us hundreds of dollars to replac…

I have a love/hate relationship with the new keyboard. In general I like how it feels. I agree that the old keyboard feels 'mushy' when you go back to it. It's LOUD. Very annoying to others. It's fragile. I've been without my Mac for 2-3 days a couple times. I'm amazed at how fast Apple fixes them. They have at least two third-party repair depots, near FedEx hubs. One in Texas and one in Tennesse, right near the FedEx locations. My other big gripe with the keyboard is the arrow keys aren't recognizable by touch because of the lack of a T-shape.

Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#13

Post by thinkling »

stunt wrote: post #5

The design goal for butterfly switch wasn't enhancing user experience. It was designed to make MacBook Pro thinner.

Not disagreeing, but:

Dear Apple, enough with the thinner!

I don't need or want my iPhone to be any thinner, I'd rather it not bend and I'd rather have a headphone jack.

I don't need or want my MacBook to be any thinner than ~2015 MBPs; I care about weight, about a decent keyboard, and about convenient ports. I don't care about it being 5mm thicker or thinner.

Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#14

Post by deathanatos »

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #2

I've been using my 15" 2017 MBP since it was released (so 1.5 years) with absolutely zero keyboard issues. And honestly, I like this keyboard much more than the previous generation. (I had a 15" Early 2013 MBP until I got my current one.) I'm not saying that my lack of issues negates the presence of issues for other people by any means, and I think that Apple's "repair" policy of "pay us hundreds of dollars to replac…

After I started using MBPs, I developed wrist pain and later, a ganglion. Could just be me getting older, but after my wrists started hurting, part of what I changed was keeping use of the MBP keyboard to an absolute minimum. (I use an external ergo keyboard primarily now.)

What I wonder about is whether it's the short travel distance (the key moves less than a millimeter), and rather rough stop (given the short travel, it really has to just bottom out; other keyboards can "trigger" before they physically hit bottom, so it's possible to be a little lighter with then). Some people seem to like this feel, as you note, but I particularly hate it. It's like typing on concrete, even compared to other laptops, but especially compared to an external mechanical.

The other concerns about a single mote of dust completely destroying the entire bottom half of the keyboard (since it seems impossible to repair some keys without destroying them, as they don't come off, and the entire bottom assembly needs to then be replaced) — is just bad engineering. I'd personally much rather have a slightly thicker, but repairable, keyboard.

Thankfully, the MBP is my employer's, so I don't have to worry about repair costs. Sadly, it means I can't avoid its keyboard by voting with my wallet, aside from externals, which I already have. But sometimes, you're travelling, and the external isn't with you, and the external also chains you to a desk, which in today's idiocracy of open-office environments means that I can't hide in a quiet corner as some of my coworkers like to do.

Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#15

Post by BenFrantzDale »

thinkling wrote: post #13
stunt wrote: post #5

The design goal for butterfly switch wasn't enhancing user experience. It was designed to make MacBook Pro thinner.

Not disagreeing, but: Dear Apple, enough with the thinner! I don't need or want my iPhone to be any thinner, I'd rather it not bend and I'd rather have a headphone jack. I don't need or want my MacBook to be any thinner than ~2015 MBPs; I care about weight, about a decent keyboard, and about convenient ports. I don't care about it being 5mm thicker or thinner.

I’ve had a hypothesis that the real reason phones keep being unnecessarily thin with not-quite-adequate batteries is that a larger, heavier phone hits the ground harder and breaks. I wonder how true that could be.

It matters less with laptops, but still.

Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#16

Post by Puer »

DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #2

I've been using my 15" 2017 MBP since it was released (so 1.5 years) with absolutely zero keyboard issues. And honestly, I like this keyboard much more than the previous generation. (I had a 15" Early 2013 MBP until I got my current one.) I'm not saying that my lack of issues negates the presence of issues for other people by any means, and I think that Apple's "repair" policy of "pay us hundreds of dollars to replac…

My office replaced our 2015 Macbook's with the "latest and greatest." I hate sitting next to my coworkers who use them now. They're good typists and prior to the switch I didn't even notice their keyboard noise, but the new keyboard design made keystrokes noticeably louder because the cushioning was sacrificed in the name of thinness.

It's distracting in the workplace and I would feel bad if I ever had to use one in a library or any other "quiet" environment. These were considerations I never had to make with the previous keyboard.

Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#19

Post by IgorPartola »

thinkling wrote: post #13
stunt wrote: post #5

The design goal for butterfly switch wasn't enhancing user experience. It was designed to make MacBook Pro thinner.

Not disagreeing, but: Dear Apple, enough with the thinner! I don't need or want my iPhone to be any thinner, I'd rather it not bend and I'd rather have a headphone jack. I don't need or want my MacBook to be any thinner than ~2015 MBPs; I care about weight, about a decent keyboard, and about convenient ports. I don't care about it being 5mm thicker or thinner.

I agree on phones. I'd love it if instead of making it 1mm thinner, they made the components in it 1mm thinner and added a bigger battery.

For laptops, I think what Apple et al are trying to do is thin them down until they are tablet sized. So far, Microsoft managed to make a usable tablet/laptop hybrid in the form of the Surface family. Nobody else really has pulled it off: battery life sucks, ergonomics are terrible (those Lenovo monstrosities with the swivel screen!), OS is all wrong.

My bet is that Apple is using it as an opportunity to develop next gen tech. Just like they did with touchpads that became phone touchscreens, etc.

Re: Is It Time to Call the Butterfly Switch Keyboard an Engineering Failure?

#20

Post by mey »

BenFrantzDale wrote: post #15
thinkling wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disagreeing, but: Dear Apple, enough with the thinner! I don't need or want my iPhone to be any thinner, I'd rather it not bend and I'd rather have a headphone jack. I don't need or want my MacBook to be any thinner than ~2015 MBPs; I care about weight, about a decent keyboard, and about convenient ports. I don't care about it being 5mm thicker or thinner.

I’ve had a hypothesis that the real reason phones keep being unnecessarily thin with not-quite-adequate batteries is that a larger, heavier phone hits the ground harder and breaks. I wonder how true that could be. It matters less with laptops, but still.

If the device bends while in a pocket, is that any better?
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