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Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

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Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing artificial about the real estate "bubble" in the Bay Area. Prices are set by supply and demand, both in salaries and real estate. Real estate prices are high, because the Bay Area is a very desirable place to live, there are people who can and will pay the high price, and the supply of housing is low. Salaries are high because big companies are fighting for talent (demand), and the supply of talent i…

You missed last week - available housing stock has started to grow.

Yes, it is finally leveling off after years of extreme increases in prices. Demand has cooled as mortgage interest rates have crept up.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#162
No, nor does the United States' Congressional Research Service[1]. In a 2017 report, John Sargent projects that Computer Occupations will "see the largest increase in the number employed (546,100), the largest annual average number of labor force exits (75,800), and the largest annual average number of occupational transfers (217,300)". In total, 58.6% of all science & engineering jobs will be computer occupations.

Now, "is there a bubble"? Again, no. If we look at those numbers as hard deadlines, then let's see how many students are leaving college with CS degrees? The National Center for Education Statistics reports that only 60,000 bachelor degrees were conferred in 2015 [2]. Enrollment is still at its highest point, but no where near the amount Sargent says we'll be needing by 2026.

I think the biggest concern to a programming bubble is the capacity challenges we face in training these new developers. If you look at historical trends, there is no dot-com crash right now. Maybe people getting scared because of data analytics, but nothing as severe as 2003's web companies over-estimating their worth.

Instead, I think this looks more like the bubble from the 1980's [3,4]. Roberts and Henn try to explain the cause for the drop in enrollment. Henn focuses predominantly on gender representation in the media making females feel like CS was "boy's only". Female enrollment is only now beginning to return. Roberts, on the other hand, looks at how institutes handled the increase in CS enrollment. Since there were only so many qualified instructors, colleges began to make harder and harder qualifying requirements for enrollment. Students, as a whole, got the point and sought out other degrees.

So "is there a bubble?" maybe/maybe not; but it would be because there are not enough qualified instructors to teach the need.

[1] https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43061.pdf [2] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d16/tables/dt16_322.10.a... [3] https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/CSCapacity/ [4] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when...

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#163
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely right and something we see in Data science too. Coding is a domain where we work cross-architecture. I can't be just a useful Python programmer - I can only be a useful Python programmer in Marketing automation or some Business associated with it. The fat package makes programmers not realize this.

As a data scientists who considers himself moderately good with the pydata library set, I realized the other day if you took those 5 libraries away from me, I'm not sure I have that much to offer in terms of my programming abilities. I don't necessarily feel bad about that, although it did give me pause.

As a data scientist myself, I learned to write code that utilized arrays and matrices - from the most basic library. From cleaning to analysis to machine learning (I supposed numpy was used for ML). Is this the most correct manner to write code? I don't know but learning to do DS without specific Python libraries has improved my coding ability. Aside from being able to read in different data formats I believe I could do a fair portion of my work in C.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#164

How many software engineers are truly making over $300k as a rank-and-file? Let's be generous and say there's about a dozen or so companies that routinely pay engineers that well. Each FAANG will have on average, 10k engineers? So that's around 120,000 out of an estimated ~20 million developers (from a quick google search). That's around 0.6% earning pay in a "bubble" situation, the rest being senior folks or executi…

FAANG companies have engineers staying just 2 years because they made enough money. Your statistics don't account for time. Sure its not "easy" to get into those companies, but it isn't an outlier to get into them either. The simple reality is this: If you are an engineer at a publicly traded tech company, it is customary to get RSUs and Refresher RSUs. These have compounding effects as their vesting schedules start…

People have enough money after two years!?!?!

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#165
My take on this is that: yes, a small minority of devs are substantially overpaid for their work right now. I don't think it will stop, since even if there is a glut of new developers, the ones with production experience at scale will always stand out from the fresh devs, and will be more prized for that reason.

What may end up happening is the funnel narrowing at entry, that is the salaries for brand new developers collapsing, while only a select few make it to the top. It reminds me of professional sports.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#166
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you making the point that this is just imposter syndrome writ large?

Sort of. The only way I know where someone can hire lowly paid programmers today is by building a system that does not benefit from more highly skilled programmers. Since I do just this for a living (sorry), it's only a matter of time before I am no longer needed. About a decade ago, I created a piece of software that made a department of 10 people redundant. The company actually tried to make use of them, but they w…

I see, that's an interesting perspective. I'm sure positions like that will be the last to be made redundant.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'll just leave this here https://books.google.com/books/about/Distributed_Databases.h...

MongoDB didn't become a public company through innovations in fundamental distributed database technology or even through good engineering. They became a public company because once Javascript became adequate for building client software, there was a strong incentive to build MVPs using the same data structures from client to server to DB, and once you build an MVP that gets adoption there's a strong incentive not to…

> software that solves the problem (poorly) now is better than software that doesn't exist.

That has always been the case and is about as good a one-line summary of the software industry as I can think of.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#168
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the side of the employees, unions have proven themselves to be good means to improve the situation for employees. Here in Germany they definitely have helped in many industries. My comment was more about the companies though which may form cartels to drive down employee wages. Companies forming cartels is illegal, while unions are legal in many places.

If unions are the best way to improve compensation why do un-unionized FAANG employees get paid so much more than unionized developers in Europe?

You're replying in a thread about how those very same FAANG companies colluded to keep engineer compensation artificially low.

Re: Are We in the Middle of a Programming Bubble?

#170
I understand where this guy is coming from, but his instinct to say that tougher career paths should elicit more compensation is misguided. Certainly there is some correlation, but he could have added social workers and teachers to his list, but nobody wonders why those two professions don’t make a lot of money.

You can sort of count on most organizations paying something resembling a cost of living salary (though even that is becoming less true), but after that everything, ever-y-thing, always, is market driven.

We get to have our cake and eat it too, not because it is harder to become a software engineer than a doctor, but because it also isn’t trivial to become one AND the demand for our talents keeps outstripping supply every year.

There are still lots of divisions at lots of Fortune 500s that are just now starting their journey in adopting software to solve their problems, and they all create market pressure somewhere in the supply curve.

Look at medicine. Doctors make less than they used to because cost controls (not very effective ones, but still) have been introduced into the system. So even though demand for doctors is high a doctor can only generate so much revenue for a provider.

The demand for a service only roughly correlates to a markets ability to pay for it. There is a ton of demand for services in our economy that go unmet, because the market can’t or won’t bear the cost.

Edit:

Also, the returns software can generate for an organization are simply astronomical in a way that even other engineering fields can’t rival. If an organization is embarking on a software project that they know will either make or save them 10s of millions of dollars they aren’t really going to bat an eyelash at 300k a year.

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