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When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

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531–540 of 694 posts

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#531
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you're maybe creating a straw man argument here. A smooth talking engineer isn't one who sounds like a used car salesperson or is just hyped about the latest trendy framework. There are people who can talk through challenging problems at their former companies and how the problems were solved. They can tell you everything you'd want to hear because it's true. Except…they didn't…

> Those are the "smooth talkers" of the engineering world. Those are the people you can't catch just through a verbal interview. I agree with this. I was a hiring manager, and there are those that can really talk technical, in detail. You really think they know what they are doing, how to solve complex problems, how to come up with solutions. You put a keyboard in front of them (or pencil and paper), and they go "uhh…

and don’t forget the reverse problem mentioned originally: false negatives.

you can have someone who is a whiz at practical and specific solutions, who thinks critically and analytically and just gets an enormous amount done WELL. And empowers those around them to boot!

they have the reverse problem to speaking about other peolle’s work as their own. instead, they speak of their own work as teamwork.

this effects many great people. also women and poc are particularly likely to do this because they have been socialized to not speak too highly of themselves. “model minority” etc.

if you as an interviewer are already skeptical of what someone says, you will increase false negatives with people who you are asking to verbally “prove” their work and yet have cultural memories of being penalized for “bragging”. they’ll describe a solution and downplay it as challenging or hard because women aren’t likes le when they’re the smartest person in the room, etc.

an interview process should seek to understand many skills: practical, implementation, execution, problem solving, design, high level, communication skills.

a varied process that focuses on a few specific skills, one at a time, is likely to convey the most accurate signal.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#532
As a happily employed person who occasionally interviews for another job, I find coding samples a turn-off.

Why? Two reasons:

- If the coding sample is in a language (or large framework) that I will learn on the job, I don't think I will have any success. Something that's a 20-minute job for one person could be a 5 hour "learning exercise" for me.

- If the sample is something like a bugfix or enhancement where I have to go through the whole process, the time commitment is just too large. I have to come up to speed with new frameworks, conventions, idioms, layouts, designs, which is time consuming. Then, the review process itself may be time consuming, or slow to get feedback if company engineers don't see my work as a priority.

I prefer coding samples that require very little ramp-up and process. Let me use a language that I'm familiar with. (If I will learn a language on the job, let's agree on a language that I and the evaluating engineer are comfortable with.) The coding exercise should be fun, without assuming knowledge of extensive frameworks or processes.

In general, good coding assignments look like a high school coding competition, or a topcoder question.

[Edit]: What I've really liked, in the past, was a company that did a very basic coding sample instead of a phone screening. It took me about 90 minutes to write, and was rather fun.

What I had to do was write a small program that navigated a maze. Navigation occurred by loading parts of the maze through a web service. Other than that, there were no requirements for language, framework, process, ect.

In short, I didn't have to onboard myself, or have extensive domain knowledge, in order to do the exercise.

I find coding exercises that require extensive domain knowledge are only useful when screening subject experts. IE, we're hiring someone who has extensive knowledge in language X with framework Y and design patterns Z. Sometimes teams need domain experts, other times they need experienced engineers who learn the tools on the job.

[Edit 2] The statement "When hiring senior engineers, the company doesn’t choose the candidate, the candidate chooses the company." is very important when choosing a skillset. Part of what sells a job to me is the opportunity to work on a new language, framework, ect. This is why coding assignments that require extensive domain knowledge are, ultimately, a turn-off.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#533
post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

To be honest, I don't think your questions were good enough to filter out the smooth talkers. I was in a senior position at a successful agency and was hired before they changed their interview style to match the eye-rolling "technical interview" that is now gold standard. I repeatedly argued they were getting too many false negatives and only a certain kind of developer with this style, but they believed "if Google and Apple do it, it must be good".

Then I was put in a position to hire backend devs and, even though I couldn't entirely change the format of the interview, I came up with questions I believe could filter out the BS artists/not-yet-good-enough from the talent. And it worked.

Example questions that are truly hard to BS:

1. I want to build a new service that crawls the internet for used bikes and presents them for sale. Roughly sketch out the architecture you would use and how all the parts fit together.

- Why this question is good: it is impossible to successfully answer this question if you don't have experience building systems. Even if you try to BS it, your answer will come off shallow and break under any sort of probing. It also reveals how the dev's mind works when approaching problems.

2. Name your favorite tech stack. What is your favorite thing about it and what is your least favorite thing about it?

- Why this question is good: any dev knows that every tech decision comes with good things and terrible things. I love Python, but GIL, circular imports, shitty deployment/package management, 2.x vs 3.x nonsense all suck. If you haven't been in the trenches, you can't answer this _specifically_... you can only answer it _broadly_. And it's very apparent right away to interviewer.

I had about 4 - 5 of these questions. None of them required a single line of code to be written.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#534

As a happily employed person who occasionally interviews for another job, I find coding samples a turn-off. Why? Two reasons: - If the coding sample is in a language (or large framework) that I will learn on the job, I don't think I will have any success. Something that's a 20-minute job for one person could be a 5 hour "learning exercise" for me. - If the sample is something like a bugfix or enhancement where I have…

My pet peeve is getting a coding assignment with a bug or syntax error or misplaced curly bracket that turns the coding exercise into a trick question. The compiler or editor would catch all that stuff so don't expect me to do it by hand unless you're paying me to work in notepad.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#535
post #347
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best interview I had was a few hours of friendly conversation about the details of my resume. Then I was hired under probation, as everyone there was, and the understanding was that I could be easily dismissed if it was clear that I wasn't working out.

There is no way in hell I'd ever sign up for that. To be expected to quit your current job on the hope that the probationary period works out is insane.

That's common in Switzerland. But it goes both ways, i.e. you can leave the company any time if you don't like it without breaking the contract.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 100% of those that couldn't do it are not qualified candidates. OP stated nearly the inverse: that 90% of those who can do it are qualified candidates.

So you discard 100% of those who can’t do it, knowing that 90% of the rest are qualified.

That's a different argument that gets us back to the original premise I disputed, so you're now just begging the question with numbers.

That is, your numbers are only valid if I accept the premise that I'm rejecting. I don't believe that 90% of people who can answer such a basic question are qualified.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#537
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A strong senior is a person who completely changes how you are even approaching the problem or someone who shows you problems you hadn't seen before. I think this is overstated. Disruption for the sake of it is often not that helpful in the context of the business (although, in fairness, you do go on to state they often see tech in that context). I much prefer people who are delivery focused to those who are overly…

The higher you go the more compromises you have to make. That said, nobody is talking about disruption, just wisdom. It just so happens, sometimes that wisdom will tell you that shipping shit out the door in the name of delivery focus is going to cost you more than its worth in the long run. Calling them overly idealistic to justify your laziness just makes you look bad. I'd say a truly good senior can tell the diffe…

Who's talking about shipping "shit"? You are overreading by a very wide margin.

I also don't appreciate being called lazy, and especially by somebody who knows nothing about my business or my team.

Please try to keep your tone civil in future.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#538
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The difference between talking (very intelligently) and doing is huge, and a sports analogy might be illustrative. If you ask detailed questions about football to hire a NFL quarterback, your most intelligent responses will probably be from a coach. “How should you change the position of your right shoulder if you see that a fast edge rusher is approaching you from the left side and you have two open receivers?”…

Maybe this is unique to sports? Do other fields exist where a BB-esque expert is totally incapable of practicing? The greatest movie critics probably can't direct or write for crap, but they're not commenting on how the movie was produced, just its output

Could Albert Einstien have actually built a particle accelerator or an atomic bomb?

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#539
post #216

Isn't it just... mostly money? I mean, if you want to hire someone good, who presumably has a good job, you have to pay better than what they are getting now. I think this is probably especially true in Europe; I mean, as far as I know, people get like a 2x-4x raise moving to silicon valley from europe. If you pay more than your local competitors, you will largely have your pick of the candidates. I mean, yes, things…

Yes, you are right, is mostly money. But there is other stuff that at the end adds up, specially if you are a Senior Engineer in a FAANG company: * Very few recruiters outreach mentions any kind of compensation expectation. Why would I bother with hours of chat, screening and interview loops if I know only a handful companies offer the same kind of compensation I'm used to receive? * The bar of a Senior position is q…

So FAANG doesn't include Microsoft. Are they different or does it just make things unpronounceable?

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#540
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are right, is mostly money. But there is other stuff that at the end adds up, specially if you are a Senior Engineer in a FAANG company: * Very few recruiters outreach mentions any kind of compensation expectation. Why would I bother with hours of chat, screening and interview loops if I know only a handful companies offer the same kind of compensation I'm used to receive? * The bar of a Senior position is q…

So FAANG doesn't include Microsoft. Are they different or does it just make things unpronounceable?

The term "FAANG" initially comes from the stock markets, where those 5 where hot new tech stocks, and Microsoft was a boring, established player. Nowadays it's more used as a shorthand for "the big tech/internet companies", not the specific members indicated by the letters (e.g. Netflix is an outlier, and Microsoft probably closer to the others than it, in many ways)
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