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Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

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Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#11

Post by KingMachiavelli »

lordnacho wrote: post #2

Is it impossible to do this safely? Just like with my car, it would be really convenient when holding kids and a load of their stuff to not have to fish out the keys. I suppose there's the issue of your landlord locking you out if they're unhappy with something, but surely that is not purely a technological issue.

Key code locks are pretty convienient since you don't even need a phone yet aren't connected to any externel network and they allow a normal key to be used as a backup. A lot of them can be hooked up to the internet vie Z-wave or similar but they don't have to be.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#12

Post by who-knows95 »

Thorrez wrote: post #9
who-knows95 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's more just the huge risk right? so many factors become part of the threat model, when you could stick to the physical lock, and really limit it. https://twitter.com/internetofshit?lang=en is a pretty good example. you could make a rfid chip reader part of your lock, but even that has weakness. http://www.astclock.com/astclocks-blog/advantages-of-rfid-do... tldr: limit your damn threat model/inconvenience.

I don't think security of entry to the apartment is the main concern (because most locks can be picked fairly easily, and criminals force doors regardless of lock). I think privacy, network security, and availability are the bigger issues.

well, i do agree, the network and availability are my main issues.

if a criminal is going to break you door, it's going to happen. but, i think people would be more suspicious of someone picking a door lock, rather then waving a Chip and the door allowing them access.

i know, alot of hotels weren't surprised to learn their room doors were amazing weak.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/hotel-hack-digital-lock-door...

if you want a good physical lock the ANSI Grading System is a good place to start.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#13

Post by ben_w »

random_kris wrote: post #3

wow making such a drama on twitter because of this? I find it kinda funny to get triggered like that and having the need to make everything public.

> Some gems include the fact they don’t seem to realize the directly connected smarthub is an attack vector for the zwave smart devices, which they never patch.

> And they can’t describe a patch SLA or what they’ll do in a couple years when their Zipato hubs aren’t updated anymore.

> Been chatting with other security folks who brought this up and they were totally dismissed. Vendor couldn’t state they took basic measures like hashing and salting lock pins.

If this was optional, fine, choose not to have it. But this isn’t optional, it is mandatory for all property managed by the same group, over the head of the landlord.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#15

Post by TarpitCarnivore »

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #11
lordnacho wrote: post #2

Is it impossible to do this safely? Just like with my car, it would be really convenient when holding kids and a load of their stuff to not have to fish out the keys. I suppose there's the issue of your landlord locking you out if they're unhappy with something, but surely that is not purely a technological issue.

Key code locks are pretty convienient since you don't even need a phone yet aren't connected to any externel network and they allow a normal key to be used as a backup. A lot of them can be hooked up to the internet vie Z-wave or similar but they don't have to be.

Even better are the ones that are keypads + smartlock. We'll probably be swapping over to one of the Yale locks which has a keypad & uses August's tech for the smart part.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#16

Post by gambiting »

I mean......yes, it does look terrible and I would not want to have this installed in my house.

But on the other hand....our landlord does have a physical copy of the key to our house. I consider this to be a good thing, not a bad thing though! Probably made even better by the fact that legally the landlord has to give tenants 24 hours notice if they want to gain entry(in the UK). They can't just come over whenever without telling me first.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#17

Post by maccard »

gambiting wrote: post #16

I mean......yes, it does look terrible and I would not want to have this installed in my house. But on the other hand....our landlord does have a physical copy of the key to our house. I consider this to be a good thing, not a bad thing though! Probably made even better by the fact that legally the landlord has to give tenants 24 hours notice if they want to gain entry(in the UK). They can't just come over whenever w…

> our landlord does have a physical copy of the key to our house. I

This should only be acceptable in the case where your landlord is also your property manager. If they're not, then your letting agent should have a copy of a key.

On the 24 hours note, in 8 years of renting in the UK, I can only remember one instance where I was actually told 24 hours in advance. I was usually emailed at 5pm saying "hey, we have someone coming around for X tomorrow at 9:30, we will let them in". I told them no but they still came every time.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#18

Post by KeepFlying »

Horrifying. I hope she ends up winning a case on this. Even if it is just to get to move out early for free at least it's something.

But wow. I'd be doing the same as her if this were forced on me. I love IoT things. But I draw the line at door locks. Physical security is already difficult enough. I'm not adding more attack vectors to that.

Not to mention the data exfil that will most definitely happen with that system. I'm confident that even if the lock itself ends up being secure that the data that gets given to the landlord won't be protected at all.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#19

Post by gambiting »

maccard wrote: post #17
gambiting wrote: post #16

I mean......yes, it does look terrible and I would not want to have this installed in my house. But on the other hand....our landlord does have a physical copy of the key to our house. I consider this to be a good thing, not a bad thing though! Probably made even better by the fact that legally the landlord has to give tenants 24 hours notice if they want to gain entry(in the UK). They can't just come over whenever w…

> our landlord does have a physical copy of the key to our house. I This should only be acceptable in the case where your landlord is also your property manager. If they're not, then your letting agent should have a copy of a key. On the 24 hours note, in 8 years of renting in the UK, I can only remember one instance where I was actually told 24 hours in advance. I was usually emailed at 5pm saying "hey, we have some…

>> "hey, we have someone coming around for X tomorrow at 9:30, we will let them in". I told them no but they still came every time.

Then they were breaking the law, and almost certainly the letting contract. The only question is whether you want to do anything about it or not(legally) - most people don't want to go and fight with their landlord over a repair happening with less than 24 hours notice.

I only had to do this once - our landlord wanted some work carried out in less than 24 hours from telling me and I said ok, but you need to give us at least 24 hours notice, come back the next day - and they did.

Re: Landlords forcing smart locks on tenants

#20

Post by triggered »

random_kris wrote: post #3

wow making such a drama on twitter because of this? I find it kinda funny to get triggered like that and having the need to make everything public.

Using the “triggered” buzzword to signal that this is another frivolous SJW anxiety, and yet this is not SJW related at all.

This is a ligitimate security issue, since internet-enabled locks are never going to be secure enough to trust your life with, and even if one brand works well, most landlords will not be technically equipped to sort the differences out on there own, and will wind up deploying these locks before expert researchers can evaluate them.

Working resonably-secure locks or not, what happens when the mothership goes down? When the domain gets hijacked? When wi-fi gets jammed? When wires get cut.

Really sophisticated two stage attacks are being used on car security systems already. Step one, damage the internet link and wait. Step two, when the link is down the car’s security is defeated, and may be safely stolen.

Oh look. Another buzzword. Get gaslighted.

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