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NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

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Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#61

Post by simonh »

mrosett wrote: post #8
lykr0n wrote: post #4

Just rip the band-aid off. Some of the async stuff in Python 3 is awesome. A bit curious that 3.4 has been dropped, as that's the stock Python 3 shipped for CentOS 7.

The code I've written recently relies heavily on async and data classes, both of which are recent additions. I can't imagine choosing Python 2 at this point.

My team is moving across from Bash to Python for non-trivial scripting. I hate it, but we're adopting Python 2.x. Our old servers are on SLES 11 which has Python 2.6 and even our new boxes have RHEL 7 which has Python 2.7 only by default. Getting the base system packages updated across all our systems and environments would be monumentally painful, so we're really stuck. It's not that Python 2.x is painful to use or anything, it's still a great language but being stuck using it seems pointless.

I'm really upset at the distro vendors, they should have upgraded their base system Python scripts to 3.x years ago and just included 2.7 for legacy support. RHEL 7.0 came out in 2014 for goodness sake.

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#62

Post by raxxorrax »

mehrdadn wrote: post #7
gammateam wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debian also does not have anything above python 3.4 on the stable packages branch 3.6 has been dev and test since 2016

Why in the world is Debian like this? Their buggy latexmk is also from 2015. Somehow I feel like every system that I want to keep updated stays on an old version, and every system that I want to keep pinned to some version just force-feeds me its updates...

Debian was never cutting edge. If you want that, you would either have to switch your branches or change the distribution. There are quite a number of other distributions based on Debian with more recent software.

But I wouldn't want Debian to change their release behavior. And to be honest regarding different versions: Python has always been a special needs kid in this regard.

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#63

Post by j1elo »

simonh wrote: post #61
mrosett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The code I've written recently relies heavily on async and data classes, both of which are recent additions. I can't imagine choosing Python 2 at this point.

My team is moving across from Bash to Python for non-trivial scripting. I hate it, but we're adopting Python 2.x. Our old servers are on SLES 11 which has Python 2.6 and even our new boxes have RHEL 7 which has Python 2.7 only by default. Getting the base system packages updated across all our systems and environments would be monumentally painful, so we're really stuck. It's not that Python 2.x is painful to use or…

Let's check the package "python" in Ubuntu...

14.04 (2014): Python 2

16.04 (2016): Python 2

18.04 (this is obvious but... less than 12 months ago!): you guessed it, Python 2 (!!!)

So, still in 2018 and until 2020 (when I guess the next LTS release of Ubuntu is scheduled) all instructions over the internet telling you to run "python" or "pip install" will run Python 2 if copied into your Ubuntu terminal.

I already said this in a previous discussion about Python 2 vs. 3: what a lost opportunity.

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#64

Post by mkesper »

simonh wrote: post #61
mrosett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The code I've written recently relies heavily on async and data classes, both of which are recent additions. I can't imagine choosing Python 2 at this point.

My team is moving across from Bash to Python for non-trivial scripting. I hate it, but we're adopting Python 2.x. Our old servers are on SLES 11 which has Python 2.6 and even our new boxes have RHEL 7 which has Python 2.7 only by default. Getting the base system packages updated across all our systems and environments would be monumentally painful, so we're really stuck. It's not that Python 2.x is painful to use or…

Please enable additional repos (EPEL, IUS) providing sane Python versions. Python 2.6 isn't even supported by pip anymore. RHEL appeals to "enterprise" people for claiming to be able to run the same software for ten years without adaptations. It's a seductive trap imho.

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#65

Post by mehrdadn »

raxxorrax wrote: post #62
mehrdadn wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why in the world is Debian like this? Their buggy latexmk is also from 2015. Somehow I feel like every system that I want to keep updated stays on an old version, and every system that I want to keep pinned to some version just force-feeds me its updates...

Debian was never cutting edge. If you want that, you would either have to switch your branches or change the distribution. There are quite a number of other distributions based on Debian with more recent software. But I wouldn't want Debian to change their release behavior. And to be honest regarding different versions: Python has always been a special needs kid in this regard.

I feel like there should be a more reasonable middle ground between 3+-year-old software and cutting-edge?

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#66

Post by CJefferson »

brylie wrote: post #54
coldtea wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just rip the band-aid off. Some of the async stuff in Python 3 is awesome. Will that awesome async stuff help us migrate several 100s of thousands of lines of 2.7 code?

What percentage of those lines do you estimate will need changes?

The problem is which lines. I found code all over the place which broke for unicode reasons (we were reading in the output of GCC, and printing it back out, and it didn't work any more as GCC doesn't output valid UTF8 in some cases).

In the end I decided moving to Rust was less work than Python 3 (in terms of being sure my program was reliable and wouldn't error out with unicode errors).

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#67

Post by coldtea »

pjmlp wrote: post #53
coldtea wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just rip the band-aid off. Some of the async stuff in Python 3 is awesome. Will that awesome async stuff help us migrate several 100s of thousands of lines of 2.7 code?

I guess 10 years was more than enough time, maybe 2.x series will be the Cobol of Python world.

10 years where the first P3K versions were unusable and the rest still didn't have tons of dependencies?

Yeah, right. There's a reason even companies with tons of resources like Google still use 2.7.

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#68

Post by coldtea »

brylie wrote: post #54
coldtea wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just rip the band-aid off. Some of the async stuff in Python 3 is awesome. Will that awesome async stuff help us migrate several 100s of thousands of lines of 2.7 code?

What percentage of those lines do you estimate will need changes?

Anything dealing with text for starters.

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#69

Post by sametmax »

simonh wrote: post #61
mrosett wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The code I've written recently relies heavily on async and data classes, both of which are recent additions. I can't imagine choosing Python 2 at this point.

My team is moving across from Bash to Python for non-trivial scripting. I hate it, but we're adopting Python 2.x. Our old servers are on SLES 11 which has Python 2.6 and even our new boxes have RHEL 7 which has Python 2.7 only by default. Getting the base system packages updated across all our systems and environments would be monumentally painful, so we're really stuck. It's not that Python 2.x is painful to use or…

For cases like this, I compile the scripts with nuitka. It's heavy, but worth every additional MB since it avoids massive technical dept. It also makes deployment as easy as scp.

Re: NumPy 1.16 is the last release to support Python 2.7

#70

Post by acqq »

j1elo wrote: post #63
simonh wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My team is moving across from Bash to Python for non-trivial scripting. I hate it, but we're adopting Python 2.x. Our old servers are on SLES 11 which has Python 2.6 and even our new boxes have RHEL 7 which has Python 2.7 only by default. Getting the base system packages updated across all our systems and environments would be monumentally painful, so we're really stuck. It's not that Python 2.x is painful to use or…

Let's check the package "python" in Ubuntu... 14.04 (2014): Python 2 16.04 (2016): Python 2 18.04 (this is obvious but... less than 12 months ago!): you guessed it, Python 2 (!!!) So, still in 2018 and until 2020 (when I guess the next LTS release of Ubuntu is scheduled) all instructions over the internet telling you to run "python" or "pip install" will run Python 2 if copied into your Ubuntu terminal. I already sai…

You should assume that python means “2” and python3 what it says in the name. The bigger problem is that invoking “python3” and having a script developed for “python3” still doesn’t guarantee that the script will work, there were incompatible changes during python3 history.
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