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When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

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Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#351

Post by mancerayder »

droithomme wrote: post #334
Aeolun wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, I had a sample test that I had to do after first being met on-site, which I thought was great. Then they said my work sample was amazing, and they’d like to do an on-site Q&A about it, but when I arrived the engineer hadn’t even seen my work, and proceeded to just quiz me on obscure JS trivia. Which I promptly failed. They then rejected me even though they were happy about my work :/

In addition to covering all interview expenses such as travel food and lodging, candidates need to be paid for their time interviewing by the companies interviewing them. Six hour take home tests is fine, but I want $1350 for that in advance as a consultation fee, and if I hit 6 hrs and it's not done yet they can keep paying until I am done or we can just end it, no refunds. The idea that I should spend six hours doi…

It's even worse when you're a consultant. At the moment I'm faced with scheduling my fourth round with a company, and of course it's 5 hours onsite. I have the option of skipping the free lunch, they said. It's nice of them, but my monetary loss for that time (including commute) is enough to pay lunch for a number of people. All that, and they can still can you a few weeks or months into the job if you're a dud.

It's employment, not marriage, guys, lighten up with your strenuous and time-draining processes. We senior employees aren't as, is the word excitable, as the entry-levels about joining your workforce.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#352

Post by jonathankoren »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #318
ryanworl wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft and Google do not collectively hire that many people and are not who I am talking about. “Brain-teaser” type questions are explicitly not work-sample tests and, yes, have no correlation with job performance.

IQ does correlate with work performance, and SAT tests are IQ tests. Brain teasers are an attempt at seeing how well/quickly your brain works to solve problems, is a rudimentary IQ test. The problem is that requiring IQ tests for employment introduces liability that employers do not want.

No. None of this is true.

Neither IQ nor SAT scores correlate with job performance. SAT scores were requested at Google for years. Explicit aptitude tests have been used in the past, and continue to be used. They are quite legal, as long as they are used for their intend use.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theemploymentbeat/2014/03/07/em...

https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/tools-and-samples/too...

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#353

Post by unclebucknasty »

sys_64738 wrote: post #314
unclebucknasty wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I give candidates time to produce something in the comfort of their own environment that goes beyond solving puzzles on the fly and is actually a reflection of the work people will do day-to-day 100% this.I find whiteboarding to be the actual scourge, as it involves unrealistic pressure in an unrealistic scenario. It reminds me of tests that inadvertently just test whether people are good test-takers versus assessi…

I see whiteboarding as a skill that is very useful in presenting or defending design ideas. I've had several cases where I used a whiteboard to layout a design interactively to an audience in a design review. I find I am at my best when I have marker in hand as it gives me control of the conversation.

Yes, but that's a different application of white-boarding.

In the case you describe, you've already done the more "valuable" dev work of thoughtful analysis/design, and you are merely presenting that work.

That's far different from being forced to devise that design at the whiteboard, singlehandedly, with onlookers.

That's not to say that devs don't hash out designs collaboratively via whiteboard (yet a different application). That certainly happens and is useful. But, you're likely to find that--even in those situations--team members have considered the problem offline prior to the collaboration.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#354

Post by unclebucknasty »

droithomme wrote: post #344
unclebucknasty wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% of people that can do that are decent I can't imagine this being an effective qualifier for any but the most junior of devs.

It's a highly effective and quick disqualifier. 100% of those that couldn't do it are not qualified candidates. Some of those that could do it are good candidates. When you bring in someone that has a nice looking CV and experience and recommendations and you ask them a very basic question and they can't respond at all, it is a safe disqualifier. It also doesn't take six hours.

>100% of those that couldn't do it are not qualified candidates.

OP stated nearly the inverse: that 90% of those who can do it are qualified candidates.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#355

Post by burlesona »

scarface74 wrote: post #242
draw_down wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, feel free to name names then if that’s the case.

You really think that the only place software engineers work in the entire US is Silicon Valley? All of these cities have a better salary/cost of living trade off than SV. https://www.matrixres.com/salary-surveys

You may not be realizing that half or more of the compensation at the big SV tech companies is not salary.

Total compensation of $300k or more is pretty standard for the public companies. Check levels.fyi to see examples.

The benefits are also much better than I’ve seen elsewhere.

I moved to SF from Raleigh because even after cost of living I earn significantly more (ie. put a lot more in savings every year)

Housing here is definitely not as nice as other parts of the country, but if you work hard for a few years here you can leave and pay cash for a nice house in most of the rest of the country.

That’s why engineers keep putting up with the drawbacks and moving here.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#356

Post by opportune »

kelukelugames wrote: post #307
gcampos wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are right, is mostly money. But there is other stuff that at the end adds up, specially if you are a Senior Engineer in a FAANG company: * Very few recruiters outreach mentions any kind of compensation expectation. Why would I bother with hours of chat, screening and interview loops if I know only a handful companies offer the same kind of compensation I'm used to receive? * The bar of a Senior position is q…

I've paid off my mortgage and am now more open to working on something more altruistic than selling ads for slightly less pay. The problem is I can't find any interesting without a large paycut.

You have to be a senior at Google or Facebook, maybe Bing, but nowhere else would be cutting your pay for a fixed amount of experience unless you can't get an interview at Netflix

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#357

Post by mancerayder »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #318
ryanworl wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft and Google do not collectively hire that many people and are not who I am talking about. “Brain-teaser” type questions are explicitly not work-sample tests and, yes, have no correlation with job performance.

IQ does correlate with work performance, and SAT tests are IQ tests. Brain teasers are an attempt at seeing how well/quickly your brain works to solve problems, is a rudimentary IQ test. The problem is that requiring IQ tests for employment introduces liability that employers do not want.

SATs are IQ tests? A large portion is math, and the other written language, both taught disciplines. You obviously haven't taken a real IQ test, which is more abstract and has a large portion of spatial geometry type questions.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#358

Post by ummonk »

pmiller2 wrote: post #326
kelukelugames wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've paid off my mortgage and am now more open to working on something more altruistic than selling ads for slightly less pay. The problem is I can't find any interesting without a large paycut.

Really? Are you in the Bay Area? If so, I find it hard to believe there’s not at least one startup within 10 miles of your current employer doing something at least vaguely interesting (or, at least more interesting than selling ads).

He'll have to take a large paycut to work for it though...

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#359

Post by JBerlinsky »

pmiller2 wrote: post #335
humanrebar wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? I was saying a FAANG salary in Columbus Ohio (for exame) probably buys you a car free lifestyle with the style of home you want, especially if you have a working spouse.

Sure, but I bet even FAANG don’t pay $300k in Columbus. Google has an office in Ann Arbor, IIRC (which is a reasonable proxy for Columbus in this scenario). What does a senior engineer make there?

Google does indeed have an office in Ann Arbor. As far as I remember, it's quite light on engineers, though; I'd be surprised if any seniors are there.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#360

Post by [deleted] »

burlesona wrote: post #157
masonic wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

outside of SF there is basically nothing else walkable west of the Mississippi What a sad perception.

Well, go ahead and list your examples, then. There’s a big difference between places where you can walk (technically that’s almost anywhere) and a city that was built for walking (ie was large before cars). On the east coast these are much more common, for obvious reasons. Places like Charleston and Savannah have a very similar feel to San Francisco. Some of New Orleans. Most of the center cities in the northeast. A…

[deleted]
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