When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling • Hacker News Board

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#301

Post by sethammons » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 4:46 AM UTC

projektir wrote: post #252

sethammons wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We subscribe to the work sample test as your best option for technical validation, but we also limit ourselves to a small window of time, on site. We pick something we recently worked on, distill it down to something we can knock out in 15 minutes, and give the candidate about 45 minutes to work through the distilled problem and then we explore for about 15 minutes their solution and how they would make it production…

> The part I'm battling on it is if the current coding part selects against Java developers. Yes, it does. And let me put it this way: I've used C# and Java at most of my jobs, those theoretically would be my comfort languages, yes? I do not use those languages on interviews. I often just use C++ (!), or Rust (free unit tests!) if the company tools allow for it, or worst case I'd learn some Python basics. C#/Java are…

Interesting. To clarify, you are saying that these boiler-platey languages, it is not fair to write a unit test in a 45 minute time block with access to Google? I'm not a Java guy. All the languages I've used, this would not be an issue. Again, I'm wrestling with it because it I feel it should be easy but like 80% of our candidates who chose Java struggle with it.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#302

Post by masonic » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 4:47 AM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #267

masonic wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, SF doesn't really qualify. How many live in a neighborhood where their workplace, medical, grocery, and social needs are all walkable to/from? Car-ownership-hostile != "walkable". Using Lyft/Uber isn't "walking". Anyway, as to your question: parts of Sacramento, Auburn, Carson City, Eugene, Bend, and Boise all qualify, and that'slimiting to cities I know firsthand. Other cities that I hear this from oth…

SF has decent public transit. Disliking public transit is fine, but ignoring it is something else entirely. Muni and Bart do make it possible to get around most of SF without walking or using uber/lyft. And, given where I live, my medical, grocery, and a significant chunk of my social needs are truly within walking distance. The only one that isn't is work, and that would be accessible via public transit if I was wil…

  Disliking public transit is fine,

... and is something I didn't write, nor feel.

The parent comment asserted walkability. If your environment is walkable, that means you don't need transit/carshare for everyday needs.

  Carson City has 4 bus routes

Again, walkable means walkable without transit. My father lived there with daily needs within walking distance. SF is not only not the "only" walkable city, SF isn't generally walkable overall for all everyday destinations (especially hilly streets).

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#303

Post by iamdave » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 4:50 AM UTC

Curiously editorialized title submission?

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#304

Post by foo101 » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 4:53 AM UTC

drb91 wrote: post #161

josh2600 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add some thoughts here: I’ve interviewed people who were google L7+ (IC) a couple of times who weren’t very good engineers, at least on the work sample stuff. I’ve found that the highest correlation to performance in senior engineers is raw algorithmic skill and willingness to say “I don’t know” when you don’t know. This is not true of hiring devops or sre’s. For those positions, you want the gopher archetype…

Algorithmic ability has no correlation to the ability to write maintainable code, though. Most time at work is not spent demonstrating ability to regurgitate algorithms.

> Algorithmic ability has no correlation to the ability to write maintainable code, though.

This is not true in my experience. I usually see a strong correlation between algorithmic ability and writing maintainable code. At various organizations I have worked for, I have seen that the ones with strong algorithm skills also happen to be critical thinkers who put a lot of emphasis on simple, elegant, and robust design and code.

So I am very surprised to know that this correlation I observe may not be true in general. How did you come to this conclusion?

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#305

Post by randallsquared » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 4:56 AM UTC

gregw134 wrote: post #76

burfog wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference being that the FAANG-type companies don't pay well enough to make up for the cost of living. Senior engineers seldom want to live in tiny apartments. See if you can prove me wrong: find a 10-acre lot within a half hour commute, with a large single-family home, that is affordable to a senior engineer. Alternately, make it 1 acre, but within a 5-minute commute.

A football field is 1.3 acres, so a 1 acre lot is going to be expensive anywhere.

Uh, no. A quick perusal of real estate listings in towns all over flyover country will disabuse you of that notion. It's a little harder to find a house on an acre of land with 1Gib fiber, but if you're willing to settle for mere cable speeds, it's very, very easy.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#306

Post by masonic » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 4:58 AM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #267

masonic wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, SF doesn't really qualify. How many live in a neighborhood where their workplace, medical, grocery, and social needs are all walkable to/from? Car-ownership-hostile != "walkable". Using Lyft/Uber isn't "walking". Anyway, as to your question: parts of Sacramento, Auburn, Carson City, Eugene, Bend, and Boise all qualify, and that'slimiting to cities I know firsthand. Other cities that I hear this from oth…

SF has decent public transit. Disliking public transit is fine, but ignoring it is something else entirely. Muni and Bart do make it possible to get around most of SF without walking or using uber/lyft. And, given where I live, my medical, grocery, and a significant chunk of my social needs are truly within walking distance. The only one that isn't is work, and that would be accessible via public transit if I was wil…

  Muni and Bart do make it possible to get around most of SF

Possible? Yes. They serve most attractions in SF. Not feasible to most of SF, not by a long shot. Look at your transit options between southern Sunset and Dogpatch, for example.

BART cuts one diagonal swath through the SF core only, and it doesn't even connect directly to Caltrain in SF county. It's hardly the Underground.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#307

Post by kelukelugames » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 4:58 AM UTC

gcampos wrote: post #273

lsc wrote: post #216

Isn't it just... mostly money? I mean, if you want to hire someone good, who presumably has a good job, you have to pay better than what they are getting now. I think this is probably especially true in Europe; I mean, as far as I know, people get like a 2x-4x raise moving to silicon valley from europe. If you pay more than your local competitors, you will largely have your pick of the candidates. I mean, yes, things…

Yes, you are right, is mostly money. But there is other stuff that at the end adds up, specially if you are a Senior Engineer in a FAANG company: * Very few recruiters outreach mentions any kind of compensation expectation. Why would I bother with hours of chat, screening and interview loops if I know only a handful companies offer the same kind of compensation I'm used to receive? * The bar of a Senior position is q…

I've paid off my mortgage and am now more open to working on something more altruistic than selling ads for slightly less pay. The problem is I can't find any interesting without a large paycut.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#308

Post by mandeepj » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 5:00 AM UTC

austincheney wrote: post #177

tptacek wrote: post #3

A lot of this post seems pretty reasonable. But: In my experience, it’s fairly easy to judge technical skill. A friendly conversation about technical interests and recent projects can often be enough. Bullshit. Sounding credible in technical interviews is a skill, not the same skill as actually being a good programmer, and might even (statistically, in the large) be close to orthogonal to it. We found this out the ha…

I disagree. If you can’t tell the difference between a smooth talker and strong technical competence you are probably interested in the wrong qualities. I have interviewed enough now to see why some companies cannot figure it out. Ask yourself if you really actually want a senior or a strong junior. It comes down to interest. A good senior got that way because they like solving challenging problems. They are not inte…

> Are things in place to make the job easier? Seniors don’t need easier and this is a huge turnoff.

What? It requires a special craft to design simpler components. Most of the people don't even see it. This is where your senior skills will shine when you'll make it work like a charm as compared to the previous state.

If you don't see the friction or can't reduce it then please take the first exit out.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#309

Post by paulcole » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 5:00 AM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #299

paulcole wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people hate maintenance and isolation as much as you like it.

Sure. I guess I should have been more explicit in my reply: I felt the above comment was lacking in content; why would they not want 10 acres.

Here’s my answer: I have no interest in living so far away from a major urban center that I could have 10 acres. I have no interest in doing anything with land, farming, maintenance, whatever.

My life is very simple and I’ve never lived in an apartment bigger than 600 square feet. The idea of 10 acres is insane to me.

Re: When hiring senior engineers, you’re not buying, you’re selling

#310

Post by dilyevsky » Mon, Jan 21, 2019, 5:02 AM UTC

cloogshicer wrote: post #82

taurath wrote: post #4

The sheer amount of recruiters and interview requests that act they’re doing you a huge favor for the opportunity is rediculous. My conclusion is they truly do only want to hire people who don’t know what their skills are worth.

I think it's really just a question of mindset. A lot of recruiters don't have a background in tech. They don't understand that the market is completely upside-down. It's a huge change in mentality and it takes a bit of humility to see.

Also experience. Many recruiters I see are either part time contractors or recent grads that are just trying to get some (any) work experience before they move onto something else (like sales).