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Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

navytimes.com

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Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#101

Post by _wp3r »

TecoAndJix wrote: post #67

I was stationed on a Destroyer from 2015-2017 and subsequently deployed with them as an IT in the radio shack. CIC looks like something out of a movie (and really the only part of the ship that does) - it's very dark, has lots of glowing monitors covered in charts, surveillance feeds, and a whole lot of people. In the radio shack, we worked 12 on, 12 off, 7 days a week. I cannot remember CIC's watch rotation exactly…

I would also add that a paperwork heavy culture around discipline, can lead to all kinds of unwanted behaviors, especially when combined with exception creep. An example from the article was the reference that numerous events occurred that dictated contacting the CO, were the CIC did not. Administrative/Promotion fear is real and can effect behavior.

While I understand the need to honestly record and fit-rep staff. If leaders are not also teachers and if ALL failure has dire consequence, then how do people learn?

You end up with qualification programs and skill sets like there were on this ship. That culture created an environment where questions were taboo.

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#102

Post by alasdair_ »

fixermark wrote: post #94
balabaster wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say non-state, you surely mean by parties whom aren't favourable to US interests. It's interesting that when a government or party that's not in the US's best interests is in power, it's okay for the CIA to use asymmetric tactics to fund rebels and favourable terrorism, stage coups d'etat, overthrow governments and meddle in foreign elections but when those parties seek to do the same to the US, it's terrori…

I imagine when a country is founded on an illegal uprising against a significant world military and economic power that they go on to win, exceptionalism ends up baked into their cultural DNA.

Isn’t every armed uprising “illegal” in the eyes of the group that used to be in control?

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#103

Post by [deleted] »

fixermark wrote: post #94
balabaster wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say non-state, you surely mean by parties whom aren't favourable to US interests. It's interesting that when a government or party that's not in the US's best interests is in power, it's okay for the CIA to use asymmetric tactics to fund rebels and favourable terrorism, stage coups d'etat, overthrow governments and meddle in foreign elections but when those parties seek to do the same to the US, it's terrori…

I imagine when a country is founded on an illegal uprising against a significant world military and economic power that they go on to win, exceptionalism ends up baked into their cultural DNA.

[deleted]

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#104

Post by jayalpha »

jayalpha wrote: post #42

Unfortunately, an urban legend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_ur...

For all the idiots who downvoted: This was not directly connected to this thread.

PS: Take your head out of your ass if you don't mind.

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#105

Post by magduf »

dba7dba wrote: post #29

> Since 2015, the Fitz had lacked a quartermaster chief petty officer, a crucial leader who helps safely navigate a warship and trains its sailors — a shortcoming known to both the destroyer’s squadron and Navy officials in the United States, Fort wrote. The accident took place on June 17, 2017. So for 2 - 3 years, they couldn't find a chief petty officer to accept the assignment? I wonder, were potential chief petty…

Interesting how the Navy blames the sailors for the accident, but they couldn't even find someone to fill this position that's seemingly so necessary to avoid accidents like this in the first place.

It reminds me of companies failing in the marketplace and blaming their employees instead of their upper management.

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#106

Post by jessaustin »

dba7dba wrote: post #19

> The probe exposes how personal distrust led the officer of the deck, Lt. j.g. Sarah Coppock, to avoid communicating with the destroyer’s electronic nerve center — the combat information center, or CIC — while the Fitzgerald tried to cross a shipping superhighway. I was shocked to read above. You don't personally trust someone or people in CIC so you just don't communicate with CIC when you are crossing the most con…

Is "combat information" necessary in order to navigate? Most civilian vessels would not have a CIC. Some vessels don't even have lots of the navigational electronics that container ships have, yet are still safely piloted on the ocean.

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#107

Post by JaimeThompson »

ams6110 wrote: post #90
dba7dba wrote: post #29

> Since 2015, the Fitz had lacked a quartermaster chief petty officer, a crucial leader who helps safely navigate a warship and trains its sailors — a shortcoming known to both the destroyer’s squadron and Navy officials in the United States, Fort wrote. The accident took place on June 17, 2017. So for 2 - 3 years, they couldn't find a chief petty officer to accept the assignment? I wonder, were potential chief petty…

Couldn't "find" one? Wouldn't they just order someone to fill the position? I didn't realize that postings in the Navy were optional assignments. Maybe they are for enlisted crew positions?

Ordering people to take such positions in peace time is a good way to stop them from reenlisting.

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#108

Post by Nasrudith »

avar wrote: post #26
unethical_ban wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If, in the United States Navy, a peacetime crew on a vessel doesn't have time to use the head without pissing in a bottle, we are doing something wrong.

Isn't most of the point of military training and operations to always run an operation as if though it was wartime? Otherwise if there's a war what are these crews going to be doing? Pissing themselves on the bridge, or have a bottle in one hand and their dick in the other while trying to man their station, possibly while undergoing hard maneuvers? This seems to be some fundamental failure of crew management. Crews s…

Not always - we don't have everyone at a military base going around with rifles 24-7 because the risks of doing so are higher.

But yeah it is a failure of crew management certainly - at very least there should be a solid "relief" procedure that can handle it - and even stable in the long odds of a crewman getting killed out of line of sight by say a glancing hit.

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#109

Post by iooi »

jacobush wrote: post #36
GeekyBear wrote: post #17

According to retired officers, the issue stems from training cuts. >For nearly 30 years, all new surface warfare officers spent their first six months in uniform at the Surface Warfare Officer’s School in Newport, Rhode Island, learning the theory behind driving ships and leading sailors as division officers. But that changed in 2003. The Navy decided to eliminate the “SWOS Basic” school and simply send surface fleet…

Ok, I don't like these bastards who attacked Cole, but how can they be terrorist? They attacked a military target. Is it because they masqueraded as civilians - didn't follow the laws of war?

It's pretty simple. Read the definition of terrorism under U.S Law [1]. Keep in mind, while it was a military target, they were not in a state of war. The goal of al Qaeda with this bombing was to coerce the U.S. to leave the peninsula.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism#U.S._law

Re: Problems plagued U.S. Navy destroyer Fitzgerald before fatal collision

#110

Post by austincheney »

gaius wrote: post #97
austincheney wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distrust of management is extremely common. I cannot stress enough just how common it is both in the military and the corporate world or how potentially toxic this is. Most people outside of management are absolutely incapable of seeing it, even when its excessively rampant, because they don't recognize the symptoms. The common reasons for not recognizing such symptoms, even when immediately apparent and excessive, a…

Most people outside of management are absolutely incapable of seeing it Isn’t it the opposite - that management/officers are oblivious to their own toxic behaviour that led to the rank-and-file distrusting them?

Yes, that is also correct. Toxic behavior is present for a variety of unrelated reasons of which many can be cured with a humble dose of self-reflection. Sometimes that lack of self-awareness becomes catastrophic in extreme cases like Bathsheba Syndrome.

People occupying positions of management are more capable of seeing trust issues simply because they have the responsibility to talk with subordinates of their own and reason upon the effectiveness of that dialogue. People without managerial experience generally lack the tools to perceive the behaviors driving the decisions thrust upon them. People outside of management also tend to lack the necessary exposure to situations where these behaviors are present.

There is also the power dynamic. A boss can more easily terminate a toxic employee than an employee can terminate a toxic boss. This power distance prevents many toxic employees from establish trust issues against a superior until there exists a pattern of identifiable behavior beyond a single employee.

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