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‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

nypost.com

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Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#11

Post by eldavido »

jseliger wrote: post #7
mdmnk wrote: post #5

> Nazario says that while burnout is common among workers, for doctors, it can seem worse because all the schooling and training they’ve undergone can feel like a waste when most of their day is spent typing codes into their medical software. > “It’s almost like being a cog in a wheel, where they’re going through the motions of what’s necessary, not necessarily using all the knowledge that she or he has gained in the…

Software engineering has nothing like the licensing and education requirements medicine does. You do not have to spend seven post-grad years to become a software engineer, or take out four years of post-grad loans.

And yet, software (as an industry) mostly works.

Something to consider.

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#12

Post by carbocation »

eldavido wrote: post #11
jseliger wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineering has nothing like the licensing and education requirements medicine does. You do not have to spend seven post-grad years to become a software engineer, or take out four years of post-grad loans.

And yet, software (as an industry) mostly works. Something to consider.

That's a different topic entirely, one that's worth discussing: would medicine still work without the system that we have?

But the question that is being discussed here is not that question.

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#13

Post by eldavido »

jraines wrote: post #6
lelima wrote: post #2

"Most doctors say it’s the level of paperwork and data input they’ve had to do since medical records went digital". So before "digital" they didn't fill in as many records? Checking the main article https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2019-lifestyle-burnout-de... found: "All that paperwork sucks all of the enjoyment out of being a doctor." -Family physician "Fear of litigation, bad reviews, and complaints make everyth…

I can't / won't argue the point in detail for every profession, but would wager from personal observation that what doctors have experienced with EMR systems is immensely worse. There might be some good systems out there but what I've seen is a Kafka-esque UX nightmare that the doctors can't say "no thanks" to unless they own their own practice, which is being made harder in part because of all the red tape (digital…

The whole problem is that the industry views this as a cost center.

It is something doctors don't want, nobody wants to spend money on it, and the EMR vendors know this, so they try to use legal mechanisms (ACA) to require doctors to buy their stuff, vs. competing in an free/open market such as tools like Gmail, Twitter, etc.

Look at incentives. This whole thing is so obvious. Nobody in health wants better records because the current industry provides no economic incentives whatsoever for the industry to keep them.

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#14

Post by smcg »

notus wrote: post #4
lelima wrote: post #2

"Most doctors say it’s the level of paperwork and data input they’ve had to do since medical records went digital". So before "digital" they didn't fill in as many records? Checking the main article https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2019-lifestyle-burnout-de... found: "All that paperwork sucks all of the enjoyment out of being a doctor." -Family physician "Fear of litigation, bad reviews, and complaints make everyth…

It doesn't actually say anywhere that they want to kill themselves except for the title. This is bad article. That being said it seems to be implying their depression is higher, stress is higher, and satisfaction is lower. I think the reason could be that they are spending the entire visit collecting data and not really treating or developing a rapport with the patient. I personally feel that most of my doctors visit…

Bad journalism is par for the course from nypost.

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#16

Post by sixstringtheory »

eldavido wrote: post #11
jseliger wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineering has nothing like the licensing and education requirements medicine does. You do not have to spend seven post-grad years to become a software engineer, or take out four years of post-grad loans.

And yet, software (as an industry) mostly works. Something to consider.

What I’m seeing is that you’d be fine to let someone who got disillusioned with the career/salary prospects of holding a useless degree take a 2 month course on the Paleo diet, and then remove one of your kidneys.

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#17

Post by anujsharmax »

> "Because the majority of doctors are overworked, exhausted, and discontent, they've normalized their misery and pretend that it's not as bad as it seems"

This quote from the study hit me.

So many people are unhappy with the amount of unproductive work they do (e.g. administration work for doctors). But no one wants to change it?

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#18

Post by avgDev »

I have a friend who is a doctor pharmacist. Every time we meet I feel genuinely bad for her. She works 12 hour days, in what basically is retail. She is required to push vaccinations and meet quotas. Stands all day, can't step out for lunch. It gets insanely repetitive.

Honestly, I would not be able to do it.

I was on friendly terms with my primary physician and he was also miserable. Insurance kept fighting his decisions to save money. He was getting pushed to see more patients and become more efficient. He often told me he is not happy in medicine and was jealous of me getting a CS degree and considered it himself, but felt too old.

I've had health issues over the years and only met one passionate doctor in Palo Alto, that was wealthy enough to pursue whatever he wanted in medicine.

However, I feel as we push for more efficiency people everywhere will have a lower satisfaction and higher burnout. They may initially be excited to work harder for higher pay but eventually they will realize they miss being able to have a slower day and chat with other people.

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#19

Post by eldavido »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #16
eldavido wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, software (as an industry) mostly works. Something to consider.

What I’m seeing is that you’d be fine to let someone who got disillusioned with the career/salary prospects of holding a useless degree take a 2 month course on the Paleo diet, and then remove one of your kidneys.

Here's what would happen in reality:

Doctors need insurance against medical malpractice and other forms of liability. So the insurance companies would develop their own form of standardization/credentialing, much like what happens in other industries like construction or shipping, to determine what are actually the highest risk factors for liability and other losses. You wouldn't be able to get insurance without following these guidelines.

The advantage of this system is that it's not written into law, making it much, much easier for it to change and evolve over time. Insurers would compete for business by pushing up against the minimum allowable standards and innovation would occur.

The thing I think people forget, is that legislated mandates are by their very nature, extremely hard to change. Regulations of the sort the FCC uses are easier, as they can be done by the agency itself, but they have their own problems.

I just don't think it requires MD-level training to do everything we need doctors to do today. Nurse practitioners and other less-credentialed peers are already taking up a lot of workload in medical offices and costs are still exploding.

Re: ‘Alarming’ burnout is making doctors want to kill themselves

#20

Post by britch »

anujsharmax wrote: post #17

> "Because the majority of doctors are overworked, exhausted, and discontent, they've normalized their misery and pretend that it's not as bad as it seems" This quote from the study hit me. So many people are unhappy with the amount of unproductive work they do (e.g. administration work for doctors). But no one wants to change it?

If you haven't read "Why Doctors Hate Their Computers" [0] I highly recommend it. It relates exactly to what you're talking about (in terms of boring admin work) and applies to more than just doctors.

My takeaway was that while doctors hate the very structured process and busywork, the hospital admins think it is better for the patient and better for the institution.

In some ways it makes sense. It's hard to refine and make a process consistent when every doctor does things different or doesn't properly record everything. On the other hand it removes a lot of agency from the doctors and leaves them unfulfilled.

It's mass production principles applied to "knowledge" work.

There was a time when one person would make a whole chair. I imagine it was at least somewhat fulfilling to transform a bunch of wood into a functional object.

As time went on it became clear that it was more efficient to break it into component parts, blah blah blah, assembly line. After the assembly line (but before automation) there were a lot of people "making" chairs, but I'm sure the guy fixing the right arm in place didn't feel as fulfilled as the original craftsperson.

We're getting that to some degree in hospitals now. Hospital admins want the ability to tinker with procedure, to know what's going on in a real, measured way and maximize efficiency. It just so happens that it leaves the doctors a whole hell of a lot less fulfilled.

[0] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/12/why-doctors-ha...

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