Live data from Hacker News

Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

lareviewofbooks.org

201–210 of 222 posts

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#201
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company is not an organization of people who come together to exercise their free speech. This is especially true of large corporations. Large corporations are controlled by a few individuals and those individuals have at their disposal large sums of money. They have an outsized influence on the political process in a system that does not cap their ability to spend on political purposes. A company ought not have an…

> A company is not an organization of people who come together to exercise their free speech. Except for news companies, entertainment companies, education companies, advertising companies, companies that place advertising, and companies whose interests need to be represented to elected officials and the public, sure. And think of it from the other side. If the New York Times gets special free speech rights for journ…

The New York Times is not an organization of people who came together to exercise their free speech rights. Its employees are there, primarily, to work. The product they sell is information/entertainment. This product does not change the goal which is to make money and does not change that it’s not an organization of people who came together to exercise their free speech rights.

It used to be the case that media had a special set of regulations regarding their ownership and how large they could be in terms of expansion. That is effectively no longer the case. The government, by the laws it enacted, has the authority to regulate media companies. Well, they used to. Society through it’s leaders gets to decide these things, for the most part. There are limits on what can legally be done by the government. Thanks to the Supreme Court that limit has been greatly expanded. The fact is that until recently few people held the belief that corporations should have the same free speech rights as humans.

Should Toyota, a foreign corporation with presence in the U.S., have the ability to influence American elections the way that a professional society of American doctors has? Allowing corporations to have the same free speech rights as humans is quite bad and will have long term bad consequences for the country.

Until Citizens United corporations didn’t have the same free speech rights as humans. This idea is a recent phenomenon. It’s unique, I believe, to the U.S. The U.S. is not the only “free” country in the world. This ought to suggest to you that perhaps something is strange with the notion of a corporation having the same free speech rights as a human.

I wish the protectors of corporate rights were as vigilant when it came to the rights of humans. But this isn’t the case in the U.S. so I’m in favor of companies not having speech limits in the U.S. for the same reason that I voted for Trump. The U.S. deserves the mess it is in. Let the road to serfdom be an easy one to navigate!

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#202
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant Citizens United as a reference to the Supreme Court case not to the specific entity in that case. The effect of the cas was that corporations in the U.S. have free speech rights.

Citizens United overturned a recent law. People were calling the law unconstitutional when it passed. And nobody serious says the New York Times doesn’t have free speech rights. That has been protected by previous rulings.

Most people did not have a problem with McCain-Feingold. Some people did. The effect of Citizens United is that corporations have the same free speech rights as humans. This despite the fact that Citizens United (the entity) is not a for-profit corporation. One has to look at the effect of the ruling since it’s effect is quite broad in scope and not just at the specifics of the case.

Most free societies have limits on what corporations and organizations can spend on political campaigns. This was true of the U.S. too until recently. Until recently the belief that a nonhuman should have the same free speech rights as a human was bizarre. It’s still considered bizarre in just about every other nation in the world. I suppose this is another example of American Exceptionalism. What other people could have been brave enough to grant the same free speech rights humans have to non humans!

There are serious people who believe that the New York Times has rights when it comes to printing news. Many of these same serious people believe that the New York Times should not have the right to spend its profits as they see fit on whatever political campaigns/parties/candidates it wants to.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#203
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens United overturned a recent law. People were calling the law unconstitutional when it passed. And nobody serious says the New York Times doesn’t have free speech rights. That has been protected by previous rulings.

Most people did not have a problem with McCain-Feingold. Some people did. The effect of Citizens United is that corporations have the same free speech rights as humans. This despite the fact that Citizens United (the entity) is not a for-profit corporation. One has to look at the effect of the ruling since it’s effect is quite broad in scope and not just at the specifics of the case. Most free societies have limits o…

The New York Times has spent the last two years of its front page on a political campaign.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company is not an organization of people who come together to exercise their free speech. Except for news companies, entertainment companies, education companies, advertising companies, companies that place advertising, and companies whose interests need to be represented to elected officials and the public, sure. And think of it from the other side. If the New York Times gets special free speech rights for journ…

Disagree. Those companies exercise their owner's or editors' free speech. The rest of the large organization are functionaries with severe limits on their speech, like at any other corporation.

I've yet to hear a fair mechanism for making those kinds of distinctions in objective courtrooms instead of in subjective editorial pages and message threads.

Every group has processes, rules, and norms for deciding how to produce and distribute content.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can sell your shares if you think Apple is spending money that is not good for making its shareholders more money. You selling shares will have non zero impact on the market price of Apple shares.

The shareholder still has no input if the only option is to sell. In the same spirit a country could tell its citizens that they should leave if they don't like it here.

Leaving a country is a lot harder than selling some stock.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shareholder still has no input if the only option is to sell. In the same spirit a country could tell its citizens that they should leave if they don't like it here.

Leaving a country is a lot harder than selling some stock.

But suggestions are equally effective in terms of outcomes. Both suggestions are equally pointless which is maxxxx’s point.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#207
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the importance to hold true, the profession as a whole must solve the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect

Wow, when statement that journalists are important is downgraded, we truly live in dystopia.

Journalists are important. My sardonic quip was not aimed at saying they aren't, but that they are suffering from a structural defect in how we currently implement news, leading to a quality control issue, manifesting as the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect. If I'm aiming at any entity, it is probably a capitalism that has stalled its progress in the past near-half century at gradually obsoleting itself (which I hold should be prescriptively the real goal of capitalism).

Embedded as journalists are within a capitalist system, they must earn sufficient capital to live upon. Or find alternative means of support, like some form and/or degree of self-sufficiency. Really good journalists seem to be uber-networkers of a sort: they have a highly-honed networking skill cutting across many societal boundaries unlike most networkers, and seem to mostly not parley that network into a monetizing scheme to retain their impartiality. But that impartiality seems to come at a cost too steep for many to pay.

This leads to a vicious cycle. Structurally, the most proven way to currently get advertising income (primary business model supporting most journalism) is essentially create click bait content, or maintain some form of distribution monopoly (Elsevier-like, Bloomberg-tie-in-like, or Clear Channel in US radio) or distribution oligopoly (old newsprint companies). The Net is eroding the latter two delivery channels, driving more journalists towards facile coverage at best, crude exaggeration at the median, outright sensationalist falsehoods at worst.

This gives a short- to medium-term boost to advertising income, but erodes factual coverage, at the worst moment possible: just as civilizational complexity is accelerating. Long-term, I'm seeing the echo chamber tendency many have talked at length about here (I hypothesize as technology exposes more people to more of the Gell-Mann effect, more notice, and they start to turn inwards on news sources to defend themselves? dunno.). There are some nuggets of gold out there, but they're very difficult to find. Confounding this is good journalism with actionable information on complex topics is expensive as hell. Good journalism these days sometimes is mistaken as buy-side analysis, which doesn't help (capitalism is blind to many issues that buy-siders don't cover).

It also doesn't help that there are many instances where journalists actually analyzing an issue of great substance get their friends and families threatened (which costs even more money to defend against) and in many cases are outright killed [6], or like Assange, relentlessly persecuted by the resources of a nation-state or large corporate powers.

So the easy way out for many "news businesses" seems to reward low-effort, high-volume content, and as a byproduct we experience the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect. Quipping about it is my exasperated, tongue-in-cheek response to what I perceive as a highly complex, interconnected set of problem spaces.

We've discussed the "good journalism" conundrum many times here on HN [1] [2] [3], and various aggregation platforms [4] [5] have been proposed, but the problem to me seems to be much larger than "journalists aren't paid enough", or "where has all the good journalism gone to". To even start on "the journalism problem", I suspect we have to admit the tough truth that the current status quo as envisioned, implemented, supported and championed by various elites around the world is simply not delivering progress for significant sectors of civilization. Aggregate measures are improving, but trotting that out is cold comfort for those affected. Sure, The Net might be great and snazzy, but in the meantime journalism as a profession appears to be slowly bleeding to death.

Don't look to me for any solutions though, I'm just an outside bystander missing the old, incisive writing in newsprint I grew up with and see in newspaper morgues at libraries, and I have zero interaction with journalism as a profession or business. I'm just stabbing in the dark here at what the problem even is, and welcome others who operate on the business side to shed some light.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5324429

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15786802

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18743272

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11343822

[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15451602

[6] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15489312

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#208

> Surveillance capitalism’s real products, vaporous but immensely valuable, are predictions about our future behavior Enough of the juvenile hyperbole. Facebook nor Google sells future predictions of users. Facebook’s customers are advertisers. They sell ad placement. Thats a fact, not an opinion or analysis. Why should anyone take criticisms of Facebook seriously from people who don’t understand how Facebook even ma…

Maybe they do more than "sells future predictions" - but I think what you are quoting is still basically true. Sure some ad sales are simply general feel good branding, some ads may be to get more data for use years later, however many of the ads I have run with both fbk and big G were in fact using their predictions of the future. search term "dentist open saturday" - predicting a future dental visit. realtor Portla…

[deleted]

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what all the lords and kings used to say. "This freedom nonsense is too tricky for you all to manage yourselves, let us hold on to it and take care of it for you." Freedom is a messy thing. It not only needs to be used carefully, but nurtured. Misuse of it does not mean we should have less of it.

That's very dangerous what you are saying right there. It is more then obvious that your freedom to walk in my street's block, to exist(your freedom), depend directly on the limitation and curtail of my freedom to shoot you with my shotgun. Your freedom is killing my Total and Absolute freedom. Do you want to give me Total freedom?

You don't have the freedom to shoot people with your shotgun.

Framing an argument for freedom as an argument for anarchy, as an excuse for curtailing freedom, is exactly what my comment was railing against in the first place.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#210
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so true. Even on iPhone. I was recently traveling abroad and lost my debit card so I cancelled it. I had a credit card for the remainder of my travels but I wanted to wait to replace my iTunes/App Store payment with my new debit card number instead of my credit card. Well when Apple tried to run my disabled debit card for my monthly fees (Apple Music, extra iCloud storage space, etc.) the card didn't work and…

Not sure I see the problem, you can still access everything you've paid for to date, I think it's fair. If you were to leave stuff with a storage company and let payment lapse, they would hold it as collateral until you paid.

> If you were to leave stuff with a storage company and let payment lapse, they would hold it as collateral until you paid.

You're right, it's a legal lien, but with absolutely none of the consumer protections we would require of any other business.

Using your storage company example, they can't just arbitrarily hold someone's possessions hostage the second they don't pay. There's a legal process that must be followed to place a lien against someone else's property.

The storage company can't do anything until a payment is at least 15 days late. They also have to send a written notice to the customer of their intent to place a lien (in the form of locking the customer out) against the property and notify the customer of the exact date the lien will go into effect. The effective date has to be at least two weeks out from the date of the written notice to the customer.

Would we allow an automobile financing company to repossess a car the day after a missed payment? What about a mortgage company foreclosing on a house? Of course not. But Apple can ostensibly cut off someone's app store access, and their access to free apps and updates to applications they already have a license to use, instantly and without prior notice. Not even the government has that kind of unchecked power over an individual's personal property.

Post reply on HN