Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

881–890 of 1001 posts

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#881

Post by rezeroed »

Tomte wrote: post #506
School-Cotton wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is a sovereign country -- how is it possible for them to never be able to do something without someone else's permission?

They are sovereign, as article 50 proves. Unfortunately, they want something from the EU. Actually a lot. And so they need to offer something in return. That's the big joke of Brexit. Boris Johnson fantasizing about dozens of trade deals ready to be signed when the UK exits. How many are there now? Zero. Because the UK isn't in a position as strong as Brexiteers fantasized. Ostensibly they are all for negotiating dea…

This is absurd. Given that you're a German you're obviously not following this very closely, so why on earth you're throwing uninformed comments around in public is inexplicable. Brexiters do not want anything, including "handouts" from the EU. They want to be rid of the EU. The reason no deal is lacking in preparation is because the UK government has wasted another two years mucking around with the quagmire that is the EU, a UK government that despite assurances from all sides prior to the referendum is not delivering on brexit, but putting the UK in a position which yields control to the EU and as advised by the attorney general has no guarantee of being temporary. That's not brexit.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#882

Post by sintaxi »

moystard wrote: post #848
sintaxi wrote: post #822

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It stands to reason that the EU would not agree with the decision. If a "no deal" is the only way it can be done then that is what is done. That's what the people voted for. Britain is the second largest net contributor to the EU next to Germany. Britain will be absolutely fine.

Eventually it probably will (brexiters seem to think in 25 / 50 years time, which is apparently a good price to pay for Brexit...). However, the UK will lose the huge amount of influence it has at the moment on the world stage, will be pressured by bigger economies to accept unfavorable trade deals and deregulation (US food standards, VISAs, etc) and its manufacturing will be severely damaged; it could possibly colla…

> Saying people voted for a "no deal" because they voted for Brexit is disingenuous.

Not what I said. I said they voted to leave regardless of deal. So if EU doesn't want to make a deal then so be it. The no-deal hysteria seems entirely contrived by the remainers as far as I can tell.

A favourable deal from the EU was never going to happen prior to leaving. The negotiations BEGIN once Britain leaves and they explore their options - which appear to be considerable quite frankly. The EU is in trouble, not Britain.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#883

Post by kristianc »

hkt wrote: post #859
kristianc wrote: post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country. One would think, but the EU has been trying and failing to secure any kind of a trade deal with the US, largely due to Europe's instinctive love of protectionism.

protectionism/standards. Remember, our cheese doesn't come out of a tube, usually.

If I was French I'd be convinced that our finest Brillat-savarin would outcompete anything that came out of a tube.

I don't think it's a lack of plastic cheese alternatives that has people buying French cheese.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#884

Post by talltimtom »

justaguyhere wrote: post #651
yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

You can’t blame the voters for trump or for brexit. They voted their hearts as they should. It was the job of Hillary and the remain campaign to push their message and educate the people on what their choices could lead to. They failed. That’s not the fault of the voters. I doubt a single sole intentionally voted with malicious intent, and you can’t fault someone for voting what they honestly believe is best, even if they are misinformed.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#885

Post by orbifold »

pmyteh wrote: post #828
nicky0 wrote: post #813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so. The UK parliament is at the root of democratic authority in the UK. The European Parliament is a largely powerless rubber-stamping body.

Thirty years ago, maybe. It's now got extensive co-decision powers and is a serious body in its own right. In fact, there's an argument that the in-built government majority in the Commons makes that far more of a powerless rubber-stamping body in normal times (recent events notwithstanding!)

A serious body that is inhabited by Front National, AFD, Die Partei (they switch their parliamentary representative every 3 month, so that 4 people get a salary of ~30000 a year) and other reprehensible or joke parties.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#886

Post by meawaythrow »

winningcontinue wrote: post #744
asabjorn wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia, and any opponent of the progressivism pushing for this is obviously an racist/sexist/bigot. It is interesting how all the yellow jackets, the maga folks, and the brexiters are all brutes easily influenced by nepharious forces against their own good. Especially when others manipulate their sometimes violent primitive tendencies. It is i…

It's not interesting at all. It's the the mundane politics of everyday normal foreign relations as countries try to get a leg up and interfere in each other's processes. Maybe the only thing that's interesting is that for the first time, it's happening to the rich western former colonial powers. The chickens have finally come home to roost.

  for the first time
I think the russian meddling stuff is largely a bs scapegoat and even I know the KGB was up to this stuff for the entire cold war. See the classic interview from KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov where he claims that the majority of KGB efforts were dedicated to "demoralization" not spying.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#887

Post by pavlov »

jrumbut wrote: post #864
dmurray wrote: post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this could reasonably have been done in the Brexit case. You would have to spend years negotiating the terms of the withdrawal first, then ask the people for a yea or nay. That negotiation would go totally differently if the UK government couldn't credibly claim it had a mandate from the people for the withdrawal.

In retrospect, it didn't go all too well with the mandate either.

In a functioning parliamentary democracy, the proper order of actions for Brexit would have been:

1) UKIP (or a coalition of Brexit-minded parties) wins general election.

2) PM Nigel Farage opens withdrawal negotiations with the EU.

3) 2+ years later, with a complete withdrawal agreement on the table, a referendum is held on whether to accept the deal.

4) If at least 50% of voters support the withdrawal agreement, it comes into effect within two months.

This is not a pipe dream — it's exactly how the countries who joined EU in 1995 did it.

David Cameron is entirely to blame for this ongoing sad charade that makes a mockery of UK's democratic processes.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#888

Post by orbifold »

benj111 wrote: post #825
desertedisland wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some specific complaints about the EU: - Nobody in the UK ever voted for an external, supra-national government to have increasing control over numerous and increasing aspects of British life: farming, fishing, immigration, subsidies, etc. etc. - The EU is openly talking about a unified army, implementation of a law requiring all members to join the Euro and 'tax harmonisation': the removal of sovereign coun…

- farming and fishing policies were central parts of the EU (EEC) when we joined, and voted to stay. -'The EU' might be talking about them, they probably talk about a lot of things that aren't going to happen. And some are probably more reasonable than you are making out. - I don't agree it's undemocratic, but yes there is poor engagement. I think that's a reason why we voted to leave, rather than a reason to leave i…

It is undemocratic by design (the role of the parliament is roughly that of the role of the parliament in Bismarck's Germany, they can't introduce laws and can only veto or amend laws they don't like. They don't appoint the commission etc.) and tries to replace the national laws and constitutions democratic nations have given to them. Luckily they didn't manage to institute a EU constitution, but some of their other reforms like Bologna have done enough damage as is. Their science funding is extremely ineffective and wasteful compared to the funding schemes of the national organizations like the Max Planck and Helmholtz society, but unfortunately practically mandatory now.

I get that it is a "right wing, populist" thing to oppose the EU, but there are plenty of reasons not to like it.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#889

Post by handzbagz »

jinglebells wrote: post #824
peteretep wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that even mean now though? May was not originally sold on Brexit. Since becoming PM, what evidence do you have that she is not absolutely committed to Brexit? She may not be a True Believer, but she's a human apparently 100% intent on Brexit.

She's all about immigration, otherwise she would have opted for CU/SM integration and called it a day.

That's about the only thing I think she actually believes in. You only need to look at her tenure at the Home Office to see that.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#890

Post by gpvos »

robertony wrote: post #835
gpvos wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK already had so many opt-outs and rebates compared to all other members, there really wasn't that much room for more concessions, certainly not of the type that the UK "leavers" wanted.

Some "leavers" just want to trade with the rest of the world with flexibility and not be bound to the EU. It's a hard argument to make that the EU is better when "leavers" compare the economic growth of the EU, which employs protectionism to prevent easy trading with outside of the EU when comparing the potential trade deals with the rest of world outside of the EU, without the need for VAT etc.

Do you know about specific kinds of trade that the UK would want different deals for than the EU? You might be able to optimize that somewhat, but I doubt it would weigh up against the leverage you have as (part of) the huge EU trading bloc, plus the loss of access to the internal market.
Post reply on HN