Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

871–880 of 1001 posts

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#871

Post by hkt »

robertony wrote: post #835
gpvos wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK already had so many opt-outs and rebates compared to all other members, there really wasn't that much room for more concessions, certainly not of the type that the UK "leavers" wanted.

Some "leavers" just want to trade with the rest of the world with flexibility and not be bound to the EU. It's a hard argument to make that the EU is better when "leavers" compare the economic growth of the EU, which employs protectionism to prevent easy trading with outside of the EU when comparing the potential trade deals with the rest of world outside of the EU, without the need for VAT etc.

"Flexibility" - the EU has more free trade deals than the UK will ever negotiate on its own. Not to mention the immense value of the single market itself.

Protectionism is what we like to think of as standards. It improves lives in Europe.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#872

Post by robin_reala »

Wildgoose wrote: post #797
DanBC wrote: post #790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election Hang on, one side was found to have lied and was fined for that.

BOTH sides lied. Both sides have been fined.

Sorry, I don’t remember the remain campaign being taken to court over lies, or being fined for such. Could you link to those occurrences?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#873

Post by AstralStorm »

nearbuy wrote: post #695
yholio wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some might say that a good outcome is one where the people can freely make their own choices and accept the consequences. The plight of the British might serve as a cautionary tale informing the decisions of some other country, that's certainly a good thing in some sense. Democracy is not guaranteed to deliver prosperity or lead only to the correct decisions, yet it's the best system we have.

I often hear the refrain that, "democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms that have been tried". But how many forms have actually been tried? As far as I know, every country is either a democracy or an autocracy. Maybe it could be better phrased as, "Democracy is better than autocracy, and we think it's crazy to try anything else".

Did you mean republic also known as highly hierarchical representative democratic bureaucracy?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#874

Post by SZJX »

asabjorn wrote: post #730
mirimir wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arguing against a strawman. So do you think that nations don't intervene covertly in other nations? What about the US in Iran (1953) or Chile (60s)? And so why is it so improbable that Russia is doing it? And recall the study by Prof. Igor Panarin (former KGB analyst) predicting that the US will fragment. Maybe it's more like a game plan.

I am just observing. It’s very impressive for Russia to be the essential force behind all major opposition movements that apparently are not rooted in legitimate concerns.

You sound like either a troll or a PR agent. Not sure most HN readers who should be capable of thinking on their own would take you seriously though.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#875

Post by addicted »

krrrh wrote: post #646
jpfr wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody will try to get as much food over the border as possible. Everybody will work together. The EU, the UK, the US, everybody. But this could still go very very bad. What do you think "chaos at the border" means? Every truck, train and ship has to get the papers checked where they could just drive through before. But there are not enough qualified officers to actually check all the papers. So goods will come in…

These comments read like some of the best Y2K and peak oil fanfic. > What do you think “chaos at the border” means? Probably not the UK self-imposing a famine on its people in favour of establishing a permit Raj. It sounds a lot more like government officials trying to get attention through hyperbole and extra funding for their departments than anything else. There’s nothing stopping the UK from declaring no duties o…

I hate when people use Y2K as some sort of evidence of trumped up claims.

Y2K could have been really bad. The reason it wasn’t as bad was because people took the threat seriously and spent nearly the last 5-10 years in the 90s spending billions of dollars, and many millions of man hours preventing the worst case scenarios.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#877

Post by roenxi »

mirimir wrote: post #681
dTal wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

In seeking to destabilize opponents, a key strategy is sowing domestic discontent. Everyone does it, to the best of their abilities. And in particular, it was a key part of the Cold War. So the US managed to destabilize the Soviet Union. Threats from NATO and strategic nuclear weapons forced the Soviets to spend so much on defense that the civilian economy was destroyed. And yes, corruption and incompetence also play…

What if, instead of foreign influences, you just swap in poor economic management? I mean, China has moved from a position considerably weaker than Russia in its heyday to one that is probably stronger. So whatever mischief you think the US tried, obviously the Chinese have figured out how to deal with it. It seems to have involved a dose of freeish-markets.

> And in the 60s, promoting protest against the Vietnam war

This really takes the biscuit. Opposition to war is not evidence of a Russian plot, it is evidence of common sense. Without even considering if the Vietnam war made a lick of sense, any healthy democracy should at a minimum have some protests when it engages in a war of aggression.

> But then, in the late 80s, the message shifted to distrusting government, conspiracy theories, etc.

I don't think this affects your main point, but irony here is that "Russian Influence" is clearly a conspiracy theory. It might turn out true, as a number of conspiracy theories do, but still. Maybe the Russians have got to you :P

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#878

Post by _lbaq »

robertony wrote: post #855
_lbaq wrote: post #846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Brexit promise was to leave the EU and open better >trading options with the rest of the world. One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country.

> One would think that the EU would be in a better position to get better deals than a single country. The EU has a history of being really slow at negotiating trade deals unfortunately. Further, the EU enforces VAT fees and implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses, even when no EU competitors exist. These fees have a trendency to reduce economic activity within the EU and prevent che…

>implements protectionism with these methods to favour EU-based businesses

Had to look it up, looks like 85:ish % of the UK trade is with the EU.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#879

Post by floofy222 »

lurquer wrote: post #396
jpfr wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A "no deal" outcome, which is clearly bad, is still the best thing brexiters can actually deliver. It could go much much worse than just "bad". The UK imports a lot of food from EU neighbors. In case of a hard Brexit, this will just ... stop. The question is whether all supermarkets can immediately redo their supply chains. That is not likely. Especially since the UK will loose all trade agreements with the non-EU…

Corpses in the street? The UK imports around 25% of food-related commodities from the EU. Even with no deal, these imports will continue (as the EU has to sell them to someone.) Even if the EU stopped, there would not be corpses in the street as there happens to be a very wealthy English-speaking country not too far away that happens to produce more food than any country on the planet and is more than willing to trad…

The amount of food the UK imports from the EU is irrelevant, the relevant question is how much food does the UK import ?

This is because, as an EU member, the UK has trade agreements with many countries outside of the EU. After a no deal Brexit, it has none. This affects all UK imports and exports.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#880

Post by _nalply »

m_mueller wrote: post #844
_nalply wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what Switzerland does. Just today I voted about an energy act, a police act and a residence planning act. I admit that I didn't study the law texts carefully. Instead I read the neutral explanation of the government and both explanations of the pro and contra committees and decided whether the reasonings convinced me or not. So even in Switzerland you could get the proverbial shit show if someone managed to co…

be careful with that "neutral explanation". in the last one we got told that private agents hired by social insurances may only observe clients in public spaces, while the law text actually says "public spaces and what's observable from there". i.e. pretty much any Swiss inhabitant can now be put under surveillance in their private homes without any judge order.

Yes, you are right. Then the opposing committee would point this out in their explanation.
Post reply on HN