Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

711–720 of 1001 posts

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#711

Post by paxys »

kerng wrote: post #666
paxys wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit itself can of course be delivered, but the larger promise sold to voters - that the country would be able to negotiate favorable trade deals, that it would directly result in increased NHS funding, that it would lead to reduced immigration without affecting free movement for workers, that customs and border control would be seamless, that European court of justice would stop having jurisdiction in UK affairs e…

Brexit seem like a short term solution for a long term UK identity crisis.

It is a reaction to the identity crisis, but I don't think it is a solution at all.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#712

Post by chillwaves »

asabjorn wrote: post #709
dTal wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia, and any opponent of the progressivism pushing for this is obviously an racist/sexist/bigot. It is interesting how all the yellow jackets, the maga folks, and the brexiters are all brutes easily influenced by nepharious forces against their own good. Especially when others manipulate their sometimes violent primitive tendencies. It is i…

[flagged]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#713

Post by [deleted] »

dTal wrote: post #669
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

[deleted]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#714

Post by chillwaves »

kodablah wrote: post #692
justaguyhere wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension Absolutely not trying to be condescending, apologies if I came across that way. Personally, I am just pained that voters who live in countries where democracy still works, do not take it seriously - that includes not spending time and effort to educate themselves with at least the basics of the issues they are voting on. Imagine living in countries like Russia, Zimbabwe, Turkey etc - where…

> I am not being snarky or condescending - I am just frustrated that voters don't spend a bit of effort to educate themselves before voting. Maybe many do and you're just wrong about whether they educated themselves? Maybe many of them are more educated about the issue than you are yet don't feel as required to shout how dumb the other side is from the rooftops. That you assume ignorance of those you don't understand…

Folks are falling for well confirmed lies.

When people fall for blatant, untrue propaganda, they are dupes. Democratically empowered dupes, but dupes none the less.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#715

Post by synotna »

smileypete wrote: post #708
jcranmer wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU council could have offered some reasonable concessions in order to remain, both before and after the referendum, but nada. The essential problem with the Brexit movement is that it's based not on what the EU is but on the distorted view on what the EU is. When you start tackling the specific complaints that people had, it often turns out that it was the British government who had the power to alter the polic…

>So what could the EU have conceded that would have convinced the die-hard Brexiteers to opt for Remain? All it would have taken is to swing the referendum result by a few percentage points. Some moves towards reforming the EU to make it more democratic could have been welcome.

The EU is already far more democratic than the UK - see the house of lords, althought right now it is the sanest branch...

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#716

Post by ako »

smileypete wrote: post #708
jcranmer wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU council could have offered some reasonable concessions in order to remain, both before and after the referendum, but nada. The essential problem with the Brexit movement is that it's based not on what the EU is but on the distorted view on what the EU is. When you start tackling the specific complaints that people had, it often turns out that it was the British government who had the power to alter the polic…

>So what could the EU have conceded that would have convinced the die-hard Brexiteers to opt for Remain? All it would have taken is to swing the referendum result by a few percentage points. Some moves towards reforming the EU to make it more democratic could have been welcome.

After reading this [1] i wonder if the level of democracy is n't the problem, but rather the general understanding of how the EU works.

[1]: https://qr.ae/TUnWGJ

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#717

Post by dragonwriter »

wahern wrote: post #644
njarboe wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole idea of a following the results of a non-binding referendum that 52% of the people that voted passed for such a major thing as leaving the EU seems quite strange to my American eyes. I would think something as major as joining the EU should have required a super-majority of people voting for it in and a super-majority to leave. Like a US constitutional amendment. I need to read more English history to under…

Parliamentary Supremacy: Parliament has the last word on all constitutional matters, whether written or unwritten, and in any event can change any inconvenient aspects of the written constitution (e.g. historical bills and charters) with a simple majority. Historically the House of Lords provided a check on populist sentiment in the House of Commons, but the powers of the House of Lords have slowly been diminished ov…

> the powers of the House of Lords have slowly been diminished over the past century or two (albeit with their consent, more or less; but it's a one-way street)

In the most key point, decidedly less: “vote to strip your powers or the monarch will create enough new peers that will vote the right way that the measure will pass anyway” isn't real consent.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#718

Post by kodablah »

chillwaves wrote: post #714
kodablah wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not being snarky or condescending - I am just frustrated that voters don't spend a bit of effort to educate themselves before voting. Maybe many do and you're just wrong about whether they educated themselves? Maybe many of them are more educated about the issue than you are yet don't feel as required to shout how dumb the other side is from the rooftops. That you assume ignorance of those you don't understand…

Folks are falling for well confirmed lies. When people fall for blatant, untrue propaganda, they are dupes. Democratically empowered dupes, but dupes none the less.

> Folks are falling for well confirmed lies.

Sure, probably on both sides. But to assume that everyone on one side of an issue, or even most, are dupes is a very dangerous assumption. Not every election outcome has to be rationalized, but in the attempt to do so people build excuses out of easy-to-find-when-digging election issues prevalent in all elections. Then they blindly say that must be the reason or that it only affects one side or that voters are dupes or whatever makes them feel better instead of considering that there is reasonable disagreement. It happens with most election results these days that don't favor the boisterous.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#719

Post by mulletbum »

solveit wrote: post #683
dTal wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

You're right of course, but I wonder how much it matters that only 45% of the voting population would have voted leave without interference as opposed to 52% (numbers pulled out of thin air). For interference (or a freak event, or weather, or anything really) to be able to push the results over the edge, the society as a whole has to be fairly close anyway. This is also what I say to the Americans who insist Trump do…

How do you view us?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#720

Post by kodablah »

asabjorn wrote: post #709
dTal wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Russian_interference_i... Of particular interest is where the massive pile of cash that funded the Leave campaign actually came from.

It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia, and any opponent of the progressivism pushing for this is obviously an racist/sexist/bigot. It is interesting how all the yellow jackets, the maga folks, and the brexiters are all brutes easily influenced by nepharious forces against their own good. Especially when others manipulate their sometimes violent primitive tendencies. It is i…

> It is interesting how any movement in opposition to globalism is caused by Russia

I wouldn't say it's in opposition to globalism or always blamed on Russia. I'd rephrase it as, "It is interesting how any movement in opposition to [what the most vocal want] is caused by [election fraud] and [uninformed voters]." It's actually not that interesting though, it's an attempt to rationalize dissonance. Often based on facts with little evidence of effect. Such facts are uncovered, easily in most cases, by those searching to find them which is why the problems only appear to apply to the victors.

Post reply on HN