Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism • Hacker News Board

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#151

Post by busterarm » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:47 AM UTC

droopyEyelids wrote: post #145

busterarm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any expressed opinions on Friedman, but it's interesting to see someone criticized by political opponents on both sides who fundamentally misunderstand everything he said and stood for. This persisted through his whole life and obviously after his passing as well. At his core, Friedman was fundamentally about a person's right to choose the direction of their own life. That's it --…

My take on it is that he really speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He's all about a person's right to choose the direction of their own life, but he's also for completely disrespecting human life if it increases shareholder value. He spoke in generalities, and for anything he said, if he was ever confronted about the negative consequences, he'd quickly blast out some contradicting generalities. The only consisten…

Capitalism surely has its shortcomings, but the reason we rely on it to maintain societal stability is because the shortcomings of its competitors are orders of magnitude greater. The same as one might choose one software stack over another.

This is usually why the socialists and other marxists stay quiet about their beliefs in discussions like this while they heap criticism on criticism.

Tangentially, the thing that most of us who 'get things done' for a living have learned though is that people who offer criticisms and no solutions don't end up getting to stick around very long.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#152

Post by readams » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:49 AM UTC

contingencies wrote: post #88

ergothus wrote: post #24

I'm a bit torn on this - for a long while, I saw Google as trying to promote "the right way" of doing things, and only getting frustrated and doing it themselves after handset manufacturers and cell providers kept doing it wrong. I mean, was the original Nexus anything other than "look everyone, this is how it SHOULD be done, but we have no interest in actually being the ones to do it"? That doesn't deny that Google…

My CEO in the mobile video space explained the rise of smartphones to me very simply: economically, it was about transferring ownership of the customer from the carrier to the device manufacturer. Apple doubled down and broke the established mold by demanding ownership if carriers wanted their devices. Google whose entire house of cards is based on the web advertising model, had to respond. They responded by providin…

They really did it to prevent Microsoft from doing this. Apple just ended up being the real threat. Another company with the ability to lock down access to the web and Google was (and is) an existential threat to Google.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#153

Post by sedachv » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

tokyodude wrote: post #124

ergothus wrote: post #24

I'm a bit torn on this - for a long while, I saw Google as trying to promote "the right way" of doing things, and only getting frustrated and doing it themselves after handset manufacturers and cell providers kept doing it wrong. I mean, was the original Nexus anything other than "look everyone, this is how it SHOULD be done, but we have no interest in actually being the ones to do it"? That doesn't deny that Google…

the most random thing ticked me from Google good toward Google evil yesterday when I discovered an Android app can choose whether or not youre allowed to take a screenshot. (I'm normally iOS but have a Pixel 2 for testing) Apps imo should not have that control. It's my phone. I should be able to capture what I want. I shouldn't need to get out another device to take a picture of a bug or record a transaction for safe…

> In their defense apparently they were trying to prevent background apps from spying on your screen.

I have heard from several blind people that this is also Google's excuse for the horribly broken Android accessibility.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#154

Post by busterarm » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

Arn_Thor wrote: post #147

busterarm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any expressed opinions on Friedman, but it's interesting to see someone criticized by political opponents on both sides who fundamentally misunderstand everything he said and stood for. This persisted through his whole life and obviously after his passing as well. At his core, Friedman was fundamentally about a person's right to choose the direction of their own life. That's it --…

except, "my freedom ends where your freedom begins", so there are limits. And if we translate that to the real world all kinds of sticky "conflicts of freedom" emerge, especially between businesses and society.

That's what all the lords and kings used to say. "This freedom nonsense is too tricky for you all to manage yourselves, let us hold on to it and take care of it for you."

Freedom is a messy thing. It not only needs to be used carefully, but nurtured. Misuse of it does not mean we should have less of it.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#155

Post by roenxi » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 6:06 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #47

ezoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't overestimate the customer. "I don't like Google Maps and I deleted it. Now I can't see the map! Fix it now!" "I see. There are competing map services available." "That's not the map I want. I want the map!(Google Maps)" "You can use a browser." "Browser? What is it? I simply want to use map!" "If you really wan to use the Google Maps from the app. Then you have to install the app called Google Maps" "I don't un…

> I don't like Google Maps and I deleted it. Now I can't see the map! i mean, is it common for a user to hold contradictory thoughts like that?!

Most of the abstractions used in computing are objectively quite complicated. Filesystems are a classic example - to understand a filesystem practically someone has to be able to imagine a tree structure, which they will never see laid out in one spot. A lot of ordinary users aren't going to be up for that, I don't think that is a skill called upon outside of computing.

In the case of "deleting Google maps" I'd suggest many users probably operate by remembering a recipe of actions they need to take to get a result, of a form "see this" -> "do that". If they aren't regular computer users, it is easy to see how the fact that some of those steps are in a context that we call "Google Maps" could escape them. They probably aren't comfortable with the idea of programs (especially if someone has told them that programs are separate from each other; because as an axiom that it is sometimes violated). Google Maps isn't labeled inside the app, so if they don't already know what it is they aren't going to figure it out.

In short, yes users are going to believe contradictory things. Just because Hacker News users all know the common abstractions by heart doesn't make them obvious to everyone.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#156

Post by Bombthecat » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 6:17 AM UTC

ezoe wrote: post #36

Animats wrote: post #4

"Anyone who tries to remove a pre-installed Google app from an Android phone, for instance, will likely be confronted by a vague but menacing warning: “If you disable this app, other apps may no longer function as intended.” This is a coy, high-tech form of blackmail: “Give us your data, or the phone dies.” They're bluffing. Turning off Google Drive, Google Duo, Google Gmail, Google Play Movies and TV, Google Play Mo…

Don't overestimate the customer. "I don't like Google Maps and I deleted it. Now I can't see the map! Fix it now!" "I see. There are competing map services available." "That's not the map I want. I want the map!(Google Maps)" "You can use a browser." "Browser? What is it? I simply want to use map!" "If you really wan to use the Google Maps from the app. Then you have to install the app called Google Maps" "I don't un…

Had a friend working in first level support. He told me stories once in a while. And it sounds pretty close...

From our point of view it sounds idiotic. Even sometimes narcissistic. But in there world it makes sense, because they have no idea how those two actions connect.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#157

Post by killjoywashere » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 6:18 AM UTC

halbritt wrote: post #81

jdblair wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! I made the same calculation 8 years ago, though now the cost Apple hardware has me reconsidering a PC with Linux for my next personal laptop.

Come to the dark side. It’s glorious (with maybe one or two minor issues).

> one or two minor issues

Don't be fooled. By minor he means "Yes, the kernel panics on boot, but the kernel did load."

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#158

Post by humanrebar » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 6:23 AM UTC

skh wrote: post #126

humanrebar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom is assembly and freedom of speech add up to freedom of group speech, including unions, political groups, ethnic groups, and so on. I don't know why corporations would be special groups without that right. But, yeah, corporate personhood and bailouts need to be revisited. It's too bad that we need to have a functional policital culture to make any significant changes like that.

I own some Apple stock. I don’t influence in any meaningful way how Apple spends its money. I don’t influence in any meaningful way their corporate policy. The owners of Apple, save for a few individuals, don’t have a real say in how Apple uses its freedom of speech. Apple is not a group of people coming together in the same way political organizations are and Apple/Google/Exxon, etc. have far more money to send on p…

> I don’t influence in any meaningful way their corporate policy.

And donating $15 to AARP doesn't give you any meaningful influence over its positions.

> The owners of Apple, save for a few individuals, don’t have a real say in how Apple uses its freedom of speech.

But that's mostly true of any consumer-level involvement of any very large organization. It doesn't matter if it's Apple, Greenpeace, or the Libertarian Party.

> Apple/Google/Exxon, etc. have far more money to send on political speech than any other organized group of people.

Probably, but while money is helpful to getting your message out, it's not the only important things. Worse funded candidates beat better funded opponents. If anything, incumbent advantages seem more important and worrisome.

But with a more principled perspective, there isn't a mechanism by which free speech rights can be curtailed just because someone is especially resourced. If so, shouldn't we also criticize white collar professional societies for doctors, lawyers, realtors, and the like? They're much more capable of lobbying than associations of dishwashers (as if kitchen staff had time and energy for that).

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#159

Post by fiddlerwoaroof » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 6:39 AM UTC

hackerbrother wrote: post #141

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but this battle has already basically lost because of DRM requirements for streaming video: I don't think you can take a screenshot of a Netflix or Amazon Prime video on any platform.

I don't think it's too hard on Windows...

Hmm, my impression is that they will only play video if you have a secure connection from the graphics card to the screen. So, unless you have access to a HDCP stripper, I don’t think there’s any way to tap the video stream.

Re: Thieves of Experience: How Google and Facebook Corrupted Capitalism

#160

Post by colordrops » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 6:40 AM UTC

jdblair wrote: post #38

hinkley wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how so many developers ended up on OS X. They wanted bash and the command line, but they got tired of dicking around with their machine all day.

Exactly! I made the same calculation 8 years ago, though now the cost Apple hardware has me reconsidering a PC with Linux for my next personal laptop.

It's a much different era than 8 years ago. I've been using Linux as my main OS for 4 years now and it's been very stable. Mind you I bought hardware that I knew would work well and did a lot of upfront work with configuration, but now its all automatic.