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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#531

Post by rconti »

growlist wrote: post #433
rtkwe wrote: post #270

The issue with the referendum since the beginning was leave was such a nebulous cloud for the entire range of Brexit from barely-there-Brexit to Britian-stands-alone(-get-those-people-out)-Brexit while remain had a very definite meaning. Because of that everyone could pour all their displeasure at anything wrong into leave and think the deal would take care of it. That's why I'm always annoyed at the 'another referen…

Edit: I got a bit carried away.

If the result had gone the other way, the UK would have voted to remain in the EU.

If a 2nd referendum came along a couple years later, nothing would have materially changed.

It's difficult to argue that nothing has materially changed in the process of trying to actually Brexit.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#532

Post by hardlianotion »

lozenge wrote: post #519
dv_dt wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even now, forms of brexit based on remaining in the EEA have a great chance of having parliamentary support. But that's not the deal with the EU and there is no time left to negotiate this I thought. Can you perhaps explain more? Is it that you think May actually cheated the electorate that wanted Brexit? I though she was essentially on the side of Brexit?

"Our UK friends need to say what they want, instead of asking us to say what we want, and so we would like within a few weeks our UK friends to set out their expectations for us, because this debate is sometimes nebulous and imprecise and I would like clarifications," - 14 December If the UK will offer something new, such as staying in the single market, then the EU is willing to reopen negotiations, extend article 5…

This thinking is narrow. There is a parliamentary majority, and a majority within her own party, for an EEA-style solution.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#533

Post by tim333 »

7952 wrote: post #441
yholio wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some might say that a good outcome is one where the people can freely make their own choices and accept the consequences. The plight of the British might serve as a cautionary tale informing the decisions of some other country, that's certainly a good thing in some sense. Democracy is not guaranteed to deliver prosperity or lead only to the correct decisions, yet it's the best system we have.

After brexit the people became a transcendent idea. An idea that nationalists want to have presidence over everything, including the democratic process and the rule of law. And at this point the people is just a proxy for the righteous authority of the nation.

The idea of enemies of the people as mentioned in The Mail has a rather inglorious history involving Nero, Stalin, Hitler and the like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_of_the_people#Origins_of...

On the other hand I'm ok with a people's vote.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#534

Post by jmull »

chasing wrote: post #51

"The people have voted to shoot themselves in the foot. Parliament rejects proposal to shoot themselves in the right foot, but proposal to shoot themselves in the left foot also seems destined for failure."

This is pretty much how the whole thing sounds to this American.

I clicked through to a NYT article that lays out the various things that could happen next in a decision tree. But every leaf node is unpopular, undersireable and still leaves a bunch of questions unanswered.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#535

Post by [deleted] »

amelius wrote: post #438
rtkwe wrote: post #270

The issue with the referendum since the beginning was leave was such a nebulous cloud for the entire range of Brexit from barely-there-Brexit to Britian-stands-alone(-get-those-people-out)-Brexit while remain had a very definite meaning. Because of that everyone could pour all their displeasure at anything wrong into leave and think the deal would take care of it. That's why I'm always annoyed at the 'another referen…

> That's why I'm always annoyed at the 'another referendum would tarnish democracy' line I'm annoyed for another reason: first, in 1975, [1], there was a referendum that asked the British people if they would want to join the EEC. Then, in 2016, there was a referendum that asked them if they would want to leave the EU. So if there can be a second, then why can't there be a third? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His…

[deleted]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#536

Post by hardlianotion »

philwelch wrote: post #476
hardlianotion wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those negotiations were not made on the basis of threatening to leave the EU. (edited for clarity)

British Euroskepticism has been a political force for decades and the risk of a Brexit has always been an implicit source of negotiating leverage for the UK.

Skepticism is a force, yes, but otherwise your claim looks very much like post-hoc reasoning. This is simply not the case.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#537

Post by RugnirViking »

balabaster wrote: post #293
arethuza wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"she is the most important person in the United Kingdom." I believe members of the UK armed forces would probably dispute that.

Who are governed ultimately by the Prime Minister. So they do what she tells them to, ultimately making her the most important person.

The OP is referring to the queen, whom all millitary members actually report to.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#538

Post by djmobley »

macintux wrote: post #522
djmobley wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remain was what it says on the tin stay in the EU and any desired changes happen within the system of the EU. That's simply not true. Both remain and leave campaigns were backed up by dubious or misleading claims about what the future would look like if the UK voted to leave the EU. Those backing remain claimed Brexit would cause financial instability and require an emergency budget, that unemployment would rise, t…

> None of these things happened. Well, Brexit hasn’t occurred yet, so only Cameron’s departure has put the lie to any of Remain’s arguments.

To be clear, the scare-mongering implied all these things would happen near enough immediately following a leave vote.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#539

Post by pjc50 »

hardlianotion wrote: post #532
lozenge wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our UK friends need to say what they want, instead of asking us to say what we want, and so we would like within a few weeks our UK friends to set out their expectations for us, because this debate is sometimes nebulous and imprecise and I would like clarifications," - 14 December If the UK will offer something new, such as staying in the single market, then the EU is willing to reopen negotiations, extend article 5…

This thinking is narrow. There is a parliamentary majority, and a majority within her own party, for an EEA-style solution.

But the DUP have vetoed it, and they're all that matters unless someone can assemble the alleged EEA majority into a government.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#540

Post by dragonwriter »

hardlianotion wrote: post #532
lozenge wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our UK friends need to say what they want, instead of asking us to say what we want, and so we would like within a few weeks our UK friends to set out their expectations for us, because this debate is sometimes nebulous and imprecise and I would like clarifications," - 14 December If the UK will offer something new, such as staying in the single market, then the EU is willing to reopen negotiations, extend article 5…

This thinking is narrow. There is a parliamentary majority, and a majority within her own party, for an EEA-style solution.

> There is a parliamentary majority, and a majority within her own party, for an EEA-style solution.

But is there unanimous support among the remaining EU members? Because, I mean, every single UK politician (or citizen) could agree on an EEA-style solution, and it still wouldn't be a real option without that required support in the EU.

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