Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 1001 posts

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#481

Post by andybak »

xienze wrote: post #134
gonehome wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the consequences are instability or large scale war?

Well, what if? You're essentially arguing that if our benevolent overlords decide that the democratic process might result in something unfavorable that they should do the wise thing and ignore the will of the people.

"the will of the people" sounds very grand and final.

"the will of 52% of the people" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

I'm not claiming that I don't understand the concept of referendum by simple majority - merely that there's a certain duplicity in the sanctimonious language being used to describe the result.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#482

Post by jpfr »

avar wrote: post #384
jpfr wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A "no deal" outcome, which is clearly bad, is still the best thing brexiters can actually deliver. It could go much much worse than just "bad". The UK imports a lot of food from EU neighbors. In case of a hard Brexit, this will just ... stop. The question is whether all supermarkets can immediately redo their supply chains. That is not likely. Especially since the UK will loose all trade agreements with the non-EU…

> The UK imports a lot of food from EU neighbors. In case of a hard Brexit, this will just ... stop. A hard Brexit doesn't mean the EU will impose an embargo on the UK. The EU now happily exports food to WTO members outside the EU, and doesn't impose export tolls or restrictions on those that I'm aware of. Of course the UK might impose its own tolls, quotas and other import restrictions after crashing out of the EU,…

In order to get their VAT back, exporters from the EU also need to get their papers checked against the actual goods and stamped. This takes hours for every truck.

That is irrespective of whether the importing country lifts all tariffs.

> https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-rules...

If enough trucks with TVs and car parts clog the borders, then the food-trucks (who might get some sort of special treatment) are also clogged. They will be clogged 50 miles before they reach the border.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#483

Post by rtkwe »

jandrese wrote: post #388
rtkwe wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4) Hold another referendum where it's going to have to be a decision between staying in or exiting with no deal (also political suicide & creates distrust). I've never really understood this reasoning given how Leave as completely nebulous with no real details. Is it really such a betrayal to go back and say "alright here's what Leave actually means is this what you actually want vs Remain"? That's been my issue wi…

For US viewers, it's kind of like if the Republican party held a national referendum that said "repeal and replace Obamacare in two years", and the vote passed. Then then they're on the hook to do the actual replacement part and realize that there never was a replacement but they have this hard deadline to get it done. The fact that the vote was held at all is total madness. They were trying to call a bluff and it bl…

Yeah, to me the initial referendum, because of the complete lack of information on what the actual deal would be, is about as useful as an opinion poll for actually informing the future of the UK re the EU.

(US user)

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#484

Post by n4r9 »

sparkie wrote: post #409
n4r9 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a sweeping generalisation. I suspect, admittedly without numbers to back it up, that a significant minority of people in the UK - myself included - are happy to be part of a greater European state. I also suspect that there is a generational factor, and that this significant minority will grow over time to become a majority.

The problem with you rejecting my claim as a "sweeping generalization" is that you've done exactly the same in your counter argument. Polls are not reliable (they didn't predict the vote, after all). The vote is the most reliable data we have on the positions of the people of the UK. It is the biggest sample set of any measurement performed, and 1.3M more people turned out to vote leave than to remain. My assessment…

Your claim that the vote is the most reliable data we have flatly contradicts your last paragraph: 61% of men and 80% of women aged 18-24 voted Remain. The Leave vote was very much carried through by the older generation. The polarity is such that if you assume the same proportion of remain voters for those below 18 (and I don't see why not) then the tables turned last November.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#485

Post by starshadowx2 »

growlist wrote: post #433
rtkwe wrote: post #270

The issue with the referendum since the beginning was leave was such a nebulous cloud for the entire range of Brexit from barely-there-Brexit to Britian-stands-alone(-get-those-people-out)-Brexit while remain had a very definite meaning. Because of that everyone could pour all their displeasure at anything wrong into leave and think the deal would take care of it. That's why I'm always annoyed at the 'another referen…

Edit: I got a bit carried away.

That hypothetical isn't equivalent though. If remain had one the referendum then everything would have just continued as normal. If there had been calls for a second referendum in that case then it would definitely just be a case of calling a vote until you win.

This potential second referendum would be on voting for this actual "deal" or chance of hard Brexit. It would be voting on what May has so far been able to accomplish (or not accomplish). The first referendum was done with no idea on what was going to happen and now the British people can actually see through the lies the Brexiteers made and decide if this is what they actually want. It's much more democratic now that everyone is more aware.

If leave wins again then go right ahead with the hard Brexit, it's what people want. If remain wins then the people have decided against shooting themselves in the foot.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#486

Post by m0zg »

hannasanarion wrote: post #225
m0zg wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally yes. Some elections right here in the US are decided by as few as a dozen votes, and people accept the results. > You just called some referendums "bullshit" You're putting words in my mouth Cathy Newman style here.

Some elections, ie, local elections on representation. Not major elections with constitutional implications. There is a reason that it takes 2/3 of the Senate to ratify international agreements, and 3/4 of the states to change the constitution. Brexit is a constitutional change.

Then they wouldn't have joined in the first place. The "join" vote was 67/33 in favor, 2/3rds, but not 3/4ths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_C...

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#487

Post by jiveturkey »

lizknope wrote: post #162
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #99

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

> Where are the people who initially brought in Brexit- why are they not supporting May? They resigned. Boris Johnson the Foreign Secretary resigned. David Davis who was literally the "Brexit minister" resigned. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/theresa-mays-gov... Here are more people who resigned. https://news.sky.com/story/the-ministers-who-have-quit-over-... My view is that these people lied to the publ…

> Once it got to the hard work of making it happen they realized

They aren't stupid. They knew all along it would be impossible. They didn't think the vote would go for brexit. They wanted to use it as political leverage and they underestimated the stupidity and malleability of the public and the powerful amplifying influence of social media.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#488

Post by dragonwriter »

dagw wrote: post #422
BossingAround wrote: post #70

All I can think of is, why? I don't know what were the main points against the deal, but the only reason I can think of that the deal is rejected is that Corbin, or whoever else would come out of this kerfuffle victorious, wants to re-issue vote on leaving the EU in order to stay..? This is insanely puzzling to me, and very much unexpected. Can someone ELI5..? Or maybe ELI15 would be enough.

Can someone ELI5 Everybody on both sides considers the deal a huge compromise and hope that by voting it down, their prefered solution will become viable. I bet however that if this deal was put to a single ranked vote against all other options, everybody would put it as nr 2 and it would comfortably win.

> I bet however that if this deal was put to a single ranked vote against all other options, everybody would put it as nr 2 and it would comfortably win.

I don't think there is consensus on what all other options are. It's clear that options Constitutionally available to Parliament and within it's power (i.e., no external approval needed) include no Brexit, the deal they just rejected for a near-immediate Brexit, and no-deal near-immediate Brexit, as well as a snap second referendum (which isn't an outcome option, but it is a political option which differs from unilaterally choosing an outcome option.) But it's clear that there are parties that thing that a a better-deal Brexit and/or a delayed Brexit (or delayed decision on whether to have a Brexit) are acheivable options.

OTOH, I think there are probably plenty of people who rank no deal and no Brexit both ahead of the deal on offer.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#489

Post by jimnotgym »

twoslide wrote: post #213
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #99

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

> What's preventing the referendum from being declared stupid and that the UK gov't is not going to do it? Nothing except politics. The referendum is advisory and not legally binding. The Leave campaign has been found guilty of criminal offences. But actually, the referendum result is the closest thing May has to a mandate, her party won a minority in the parliamentary elections.

Correct, in fact the only force that the referendum has at all is that David Cameron promised to enact the result. But even this is old news, a past Prime Minister can hardly bind the hands of a future one! In fact the idea that a government can't bind a future government is an important part of Britain's ("unwritten") constitution.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#490

Post by growlist »

mattlondon wrote: post #383
PaulRobinson wrote: post #142

Here's what happens next: - A motion of no confidence has been tabled and will be debated and voted on tomorrow - If the motion carries (i.e. the Government loses): 1. Theresa May must resign as Prime Minister 2. There can be a 14 day window in which a new government is formed, which must be approved by a motion of confidence. This is likely to be waived 3. There will be a general election. Theresa May will remain le…

17m people might be in a rage, but the other 16m are equally in a rage, but I've not seen any civil war here yet. With respect, I think you are grossly over-reacting by mentioning civil war. If it goes to a second referendum and remain win, then that is the "will of the people", not politicians/Westminster elite/EU telling people how to live their lives, it's the fellow man and woman on the street making the decision…

Ageism: one of the few remaining socially acceptable types of hate!
Post reply on HN