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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#321

Post by beavis2 »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #212
itissid wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. Out of curiosity, how has "EU is telling us what to do" affected these people to make them so angry?

This is a complicated topic, but a short and overly basic version: There are many people in the UK - as in the US, as in most of the West, actually - for whom neoliberalism has not been kind. They see immigrants getting jobs and struggle to make ends meet and have been told via various right wing media outlets (in the UK, principally the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers), that there are…

> because they are prepared to do work locals are not, at a price that locals will not consider.

Fortunately, those locals are able to purchase their produce at a lower price, with the benefits they claim which is being paid for by the migrant's taxes.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#322

Post by hazeii »

paxys wrote: post #274
hazeii wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on.. I would - respectfully - point out that's not the situation. It is (was?) a promise in the sense that the government is there to enact the will of the people. The majority of people who voted, voted to leave (personally I was in the minority). So now (in engineering terms) it's pretty simple. If everyone sits on their hands, the UK will leave the UK as schedule…

Brexit itself can of course be delivered, but the larger promise sold to voters - that the country would be able to negotiate favorable trade deals, that it would directly result in increased NHS funding, that it would lead to reduced immigration without affecting free movement for workers, that customs and border control would be seamless, that European court of justice would stop having jurisdiction in UK affairs e…

Indeed; a lot of people subscribe to the view that the vote delivered the 'incorrect' result because one side was more effective at lying than the other side.

Very difficult to know where to draw a line; my feeling is that even if history shows the people were wrong the government should not be allowed to (directly or indirectly) do something other than what they were elected to do - i.e. serve the people (on a plate, it seems).

And I write this from the losing side (in the referendum); about the only way it could get worse if it turns I'm on the winning side in the end (cf. Boaty McBoatface; the people were asked to vote for the name of the vehicle, but the powers that be didn't like such a frivolous name so they reneged and called it the RRS Sir David Attenborough instead. The parallel should be obvious).

Edit: toned down the rhetoric.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#323

Post by PaulRobinson »

avar wrote: post #299
PaulRobinson wrote: post #142

Here's what happens next: - A motion of no confidence has been tabled and will be debated and voted on tomorrow - If the motion carries (i.e. the Government loses): 1. Theresa May must resign as Prime Minister 2. There can be a 14 day window in which a new government is formed, which must be approved by a motion of confidence. This is likely to be waived 3. There will be a general election. Theresa May will remain le…

> There is no winning here, and there is no situation in which we get to revoke Article 50 and the UK remains in the EU and all is well. The ECJ has said that the UK can just revoke article 50 and stay in the EU[1]. I understand how this might be political suicide for some in the UK, but there is the option of takesies backsies (although that would happen to e.g. the EMA is unclear). So one option is to hold another…

The ECJ is so hated by Leavers that taking their advice could see Parliament being burned to the ground.

It being legally possible is not the same as it being even remotely possible at this stage.

What needs to happen is the Leavers need to realise that No Deal isn't acceptable (they don't), and that more time is needed for a better deal or that it gets democratic backing.

Unfortunately, Parliament has already kind of voted no deal into law, and seem to have forgotten that, a fact the "European Research Group" - a bunch of Leavers in Parliament chaired by Jacob Rees-Mogg - is keen to remind them of that. Constantly.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#324

Post by [deleted] »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #212
itissid wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. Out of curiosity, how has "EU is telling us what to do" affected these people to make them so angry?

This is a complicated topic, but a short and overly basic version: There are many people in the UK - as in the US, as in most of the West, actually - for whom neoliberalism has not been kind. They see immigrants getting jobs and struggle to make ends meet and have been told via various right wing media outlets (in the UK, principally the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers), that there are…

[deleted]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#325

Post by tolien »

mandeepj wrote: post #278
yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

> you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal source? The deal failed inside UK parliament and not at EU.

The "unfavourable trade deal" would be of the kind that could command more support in Parliament, i.e. was more favourable to HMG's position (presumably with the Irish backstop removed, for one).

By definition that would mean the EU giving more in the negotiation, i.e. it would be less favourable to them.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#326

Post by jdietrich »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #212
itissid wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. Out of curiosity, how has "EU is telling us what to do" affected these people to make them so angry?

This is a complicated topic, but a short and overly basic version: There are many people in the UK - as in the US, as in most of the West, actually - for whom neoliberalism has not been kind. They see immigrants getting jobs and struggle to make ends meet and have been told via various right wing media outlets (in the UK, principally the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun, Telegraph and Times newspapers), that there are…

For anyone outside the UK, it's worth taking a look at the European Commission's Euromyths page. Since 1992, the Commission has been producing regular bulletins to correct erroneous stories about the EU in the British press. The absurdity and quantity of these stories is quite staggering.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#327

Post by laurentoget »

fixermark wrote: post #296

So what is the worst-case scenario if the UK comes up with no clear legal plan for Brexit on their end before the EU deadline?

Major recession, food and medicine shortage, 1 million british citizen deported back to the UK, 3 million EU citizen leaving the UK and civil war in Northern Ireland is what the most alarmist have predicted.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#328

Post by Animats »

There's not much time left. Brexit happens March 29th. The EU countries are hiring more customs inspectors. Shippers are planning new shipping routes to avoid transit through the UK. The UK's financial services sector takes a huge hit. UK financial services have already moved US$1 trillion in assets out of the UK, and that's picking up as the deadline approaches.

The City of London will be much less important soon.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#329

Post by DanBC »

m0zg wrote: post #83
toomuchtodo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?

The directly expressed will of a minority of the UK was for "brexit", not "brexit no matter what".

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#330

Post by panarky »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #267
nostrademons wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then that's what we get. There's no guarantee of a good outcome: if the majority of people want to do stupid things, a democracy will let them. In such a case we'd probably be fucked regardless of what form of government we had. A dictatorship, monarchy, or oligarchy lets a minority of people do stupid things, and if you have a majority, it's fairly likely there is a powerful minority contained within them.

You're thinking of a direct democracy. One major advantage of electing representatives is that they can prevent slim majorities from enacting huge mistakes. Note that there won't be a democratic vote on any particular Brexit deal, which is likely to be less popular than the abstract idea of a Brexit. So if a Brexit deal is brokered, there's a good chance it won't be what a majority of people want to do.

A referendum is about as direct as you can get.
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