Live data from Hacker News

Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

231–240 of 1001 posts

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#231
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May's deal permanently blocks the UK from ever fully leaving the EU without the EU's permission, meaning that anyone who wants to leave won't support it. It also removes almost all the benefits of remaining in the EU, meaning Remain supporters hate it too. Oh, and for bonus points it effectively makes Northern Ireland no longer fully part of the UK, meaning that the DUP (the Northern Ireland unionist party which the…

The UK is a sovereign country -- how is it possible for them to never be able to do something without someone else's permission?

They can do it but it without any permission, but it would screw them. They want to undo 40+ years of integration in a few years because a small majority voted

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

This is really curious. Are there any systems that govern well that don’t recognize democratic principles? I’m trying to figure out how the U.K. can make decisions given that very few will have a literal majority given that there are so many non-voters (eg, babies and comatose). What is a better form of determining the will of the people than an election? In the US there is a constitution so huge changes can’t be mad…

Define "govern well". Is that where the will of the people is aligned as closely as possible to public policy and government action? Is it where their quality of life is most improved regardless of their desires? It's a hard question to answer.

China governs very well as an autocracy, if I had to measure by the quality of life of its citizens. Yes, their will is not expressed through representation, but China has done more than any other nation or company to pull an enormous amount of humans out of poverty in a short amount of time. They have traded a reduction in representation and exerted will for a reduction in suffering.

It's a similar thought exercise to "What is success?" I cannot answer your question unfortunately.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#233
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally yes. Some elections right here in the US are decided by as few as a dozen votes, and people accept the results. > You just called some referendums "bullshit" You're putting words in my mouth Cathy Newman style here.

...Pending the next election -- which generally occurs 2-6 years later. (Or, in the case of passed referendums, some future election, depending on when the modifying referendum makes it on the ballot.) Leaving the EU is far less readily reversible.

Entering it too was not readily reversible. Why should exit be any different?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MAD's not really a thing unfortunately. Nuclear winter was always a myth.

It doesn't take nuclear winter for countries to make the decision that "if I nuke them they will nuke me and that will be bad".

Yeah but that's just military tactics. As well just fly a bomber in and just drop a bomb on the capital. Same deterrent value.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#235

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Yep, we've had two and a half lost years. If there is an upside, then it looks like not many great minds are actually working on Brexit.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#236

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

> 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not voting as such individually. Also an American, but from the outside I don't see how a majority desire can be so accurately determined beyond a vote. > Some portions of the UK [...] are strongly aganst this voting result. This I definitely see from the loudest. So strongly that the vote has been tarnished e…

On point 2, there's quite a complex answer. Firstly, the vote was basically "Leave or Remain". Remain meant stay in the EU on the current known terms. Leave meant... well: You could leave the EU but remain a part of the single market for trade (this was promised during the referendum), you could leave but have a custom arrangement with the EU like Switzerland which means you retain EU law but have no vote (this was also promised during the referendum), or you could leave all the EU institutions and then re-enter a random assortment of them like Euratom (this was also promised during the referendum) or you could leave the EU entirely and just start negotiating some free trade agreements like the EU's relationship with Canada (this was also promised in the referendum).

The key is that because the 'Leave' campaign weren't in government and weren't one single organised group and didn't actually hold power they could promise literally anything safe in the knowledge that they'd never have to actually deliver it. In fact after 'Leave' won the referendum the Prime Minister resigned and none of the key Leave campaigners actually mounted a serious campaign to replace him- someone who campaigned for remain was put in charge almost unchallenged.

So through all this murkiness you end up with one key fact: 48% of the country wanted to remain, 52% wanted some form of leaving but each of those options I listed above probably garner no more than 20% of the vote by themselves. So we're 52:48 in favour of leaving, and 80:20 against any specific way of leaving.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#237
post #5

Don't fully understand UK government structure but is it possible for the labor party to take over leadership and revoke article 50 before the deadline?

It's possible Labor will take over if May loses her confidence vote. But Corbyn's current position has been that he'd pursue Brexit with unicorn promises, rather than cancel the whole thing like his constituents want him to do. So it's doubtful that Labor would revoke article 50. Just spitballing here... Methinks May will win her confidence vote tomorrow. From there, the consensus seems to be to steer towards a peopl…

[flagged]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#238

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

> 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not voting as such individually. Also an American, but from the outside I don't see how a majority desire can be so accurately determined beyond a vote. > Some portions of the UK [...] are strongly aganst this voting result. This I definitely see from the loudest. So strongly that the vote has been tarnished e…

>Also an American, but from the outside I don't see how a majority desire can be so objectively determined beyond a vote.

My personal opinion is "majority" wins isn't necessarily a proper majority. Given how our Congress votes party line on most things, and the ratio is more or less 50:50 Dm to Rep, a 66% majority seems minimal for passing any law unblemished with party bias.

With 72% of registered UK voter turnout, Brexit won with only 52%. That's not a mandate for anything except perhaps another vote after clarifying what it would actually mean and how it would actually happen.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the consequences are instability or large scale war?

Then that's what we get. There's no guarantee of a good outcome: if the majority of people want to do stupid things, a democracy will let them. In such a case we'd probably be fucked regardless of what form of government we had. A dictatorship, monarchy, or oligarchy lets a minority of people do stupid things, and if you have a majority, it's fairly likely there is a powerful minority contained within them.

The majority of EU citizens did not vote in the Brexit referendum. They shouldn't have to suffer the consequences [edit to clarify] of a war resulting from this vote.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#240

The UK is so close to being free from the grips of the EU. It will be tough, but it is a sacrifice they must be willing to make.

As of 21:05 UTC, 2019-01-15, the OP to this comment has this as their profile information:

> user: matte_black

> created: November 6, 2017

> karma: 1915

> about: This account is for sale.

Any further commenters to this user should be advised.

Post reply on HN