Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

google.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 175 posts

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#111

Post by portman »

armandososa wrote: post #91
portman wrote: post #75

Le sigh. I think Google has lost sight of something very simple in this fracas: With Google Contacts, the user directly manages his contacts' email addresses . With Facebook, the user delegates management of email address to his contacts . These are not the same thing. The Google contacts team seems to think that Facebook is an address book just like them . They are not. And to me, that failure to understand the diff…

And juste because I delegated management of contacts to Facebook, are they excused for not letting me get my data out whenever I want to switch contact management services -- for example -- to diaspora?

That's not what I said.

With Facebook, you delegate authority to manage email address to YOUR CONTACTS (not Facebook).

In Google or any other address book, I can go into my friend Ted's contact and change his email address if I want to.

In Facebook, I can't change Ted's email address. Only Ted can change it.

To me, this is a MAJOR distinction.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#112

Post by sets13 »

jasonkester wrote: post #63

As luck would have it, I picked today to set up a Facebook profile for me girlfriend. I'm now really angry with Google. It used to be a 30 second task to sift through your address book and check off people to send friend requests to. Now, thanks to Google behaving like children, I need to figure out how to export her contacts as a text file so that I can upload it to Facebook. Google, please stop. You are pissing off…

At the end of the day it was not google who is making this choice but Facebook. There is still a functioning API that would allow Facebook to continue allowing users to import their contacts. The problem is that they are no longer in compliance with the usage terms of this API. If it is such a problem for the customer all Facebook needs to do is move into compliance with the usage terms of this API (by allowing users to export their data from facebook) and then they can begin using the API again. All in all I agree with Google's modification to the API usage license and really think that the ball is in Facebook's court.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#113

Post by [deleted] »

cookiecaper wrote: post #99
armandososa wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And juste because I delegated management of contacts to Facebook, are they excused for not letting me get my data out whenever I want to switch contact management services -- for example -- to diaspora?

Facebook allows you to do this now. Go to Account->Account Settings->Download your Information.

[deleted]

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#114

Post by nlogn »

alain94040 wrote: post #70
mquander wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way is Google taking that stance? Last I checked, Google was taking the exactly opposite stance. http://www.dataliberation.org/

Obviously I must have phrased my position wrong, based on the reaction. Yes, they are taking that stance, since they are imposing conditions on exporting data from gmail. If I owned and could do anything I wanted with my data on gmail, then Google could not impose restrictions. They just did (in their API restrictions). That's what I'm very concerned about.

This sounds to me like arguing over whether BSD is more free than GPL. Google made it difficult (but still not impossible) for other services to gain access to your contacts data if those services are unwilling to reciprocate. The goal of this is obviously to incentivize companies to allow you to export your data from them (which increases competition and is better for the consumer). There is still nothing stopping you from exporting your contacts to a CSV and importing them elsewhere.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#115

Post by cwlq »

jasonkester wrote: post #89
dedward wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can export them just fine - they just aren't allowing a 3rd party site to automatically import them - they're making you consciously do it yourself. To someone who can do it either way, this may just seem like an annoyance, but a great many people won't grasp the severity of what they are about to do by handing their credentials for gmail over to facebook.

Exactly. One week ago, you could seamlessly import them into Facebook. - That's a big step back. - It makes things worse for their users. - There is no positive effect from the change. - They did it on purpose. We're all here because we build web apps for a living. And none of us would ever consider doing something like that with one of our own sites. I have no idea why anybody at Google thought that this was a good…

Because Gmail can't import Facebook contacts. Google is trying to use it's influence to encourage Facebook to improve it's data portability while still not locking users in.

Seems like a good idea to me.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#116

Post by stanleydrew »

jasonkester wrote: post #89
dedward wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can export them just fine - they just aren't allowing a 3rd party site to automatically import them - they're making you consciously do it yourself. To someone who can do it either way, this may just seem like an annoyance, but a great many people won't grasp the severity of what they are about to do by handing their credentials for gmail over to facebook.

Exactly. One week ago, you could seamlessly import them into Facebook. - That's a big step back. - It makes things worse for their users. - There is no positive effect from the change. - They did it on purpose. We're all here because we build web apps for a living. And none of us would ever consider doing something like that with one of our own sites. I have no idea why anybody at Google thought that this was a good…

There is a positive effect from the change: more people will be aware of Facebook's practices with respect to their contact data. I think Google is betting that this positive effect outweighs the negative effects.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#117

Post by portman »

stanleydrew wrote: post #100
blahedo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't understand the distinction portman is making. It's not between "type in email myself" vs "harvest from email", i.e. a question of data entry. It's a question of management . With Google Contacts, I'm the one that updates an email address if someone else's address changes. With Facebook, all I manage is the list of contacts , while the contact manages their own email address. Which means that when someon…

It is a pretty big difference, but I still don't see how failing to understand it on google's part (and they probably do understand it) is the source of all this.

Language like this makes me think they don't understand:

"essentially locking up your contact data about your friends"

Note the first 'your' in that sentence: From Google's P.O.V., the email address of your friend is your data. From Facebook's P.O.V, the email address of your friend is not your data -- it's the friend's data.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#118

Post by stanleydrew »

portman wrote: post #111
armandososa wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And juste because I delegated management of contacts to Facebook, are they excused for not letting me get my data out whenever I want to switch contact management services -- for example -- to diaspora?

That's not what I said. With Facebook, you delegate authority to manage email address to YOUR CONTACTS (not Facebook). In Google or any other address book, I can go into my friend Ted's contact and change his email address if I want to. In Facebook, I can't change Ted's email address. Only Ted can change it. To me, this is a MAJOR distinction.

I grant you the distinction. Now can you please explain why it's important and how Google failing to understand it is the cause of all this.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#119

Post by davorak »

jasonkester wrote: post #89
dedward wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can export them just fine - they just aren't allowing a 3rd party site to automatically import them - they're making you consciously do it yourself. To someone who can do it either way, this may just seem like an annoyance, but a great many people won't grasp the severity of what they are about to do by handing their credentials for gmail over to facebook.

Exactly. One week ago, you could seamlessly import them into Facebook. - That's a big step back. - It makes things worse for their users. - There is no positive effect from the change. - They did it on purpose. We're all here because we build web apps for a living. And none of us would ever consider doing something like that with one of our own sites. I have no idea why anybody at Google thought that this was a good…

Facebook is play a greedy game theory strategy by not allowing for a user to download their social graph. Googles response was to use a tit for tat game theory strategy which is effective against the greedy game theory strategy.

The greedy game theory strategy in this case ends up being bad for consumers, they can not download their social graph from Facebook. Game theory subjects that when the vast major of agents are using the greedy strategy that is is impractical for a generous or tit for tact agent to survive. Each company that plays the greedy strategy is a step down the road to the greedy equilibrium. Where no companies offer easy methods to download your social graph or relevant information.

Google played a tit for tat strategy and did the world a service by preventing one step on the road to the greedy equilibrium.

Re: Gmail: Trap my contacts now (warning when exporting contacts to Facebook)

#120

Post by portman »

armandososa wrote: post #91
portman wrote: post #75

Le sigh. I think Google has lost sight of something very simple in this fracas: With Google Contacts, the user directly manages his contacts' email addresses . With Facebook, the user delegates management of email address to his contacts . These are not the same thing. The Google contacts team seems to think that Facebook is an address book just like them . They are not. And to me, that failure to understand the diff…

And juste because I delegated management of contacts to Facebook, are they excused for not letting me get my data out whenever I want to switch contact management services -- for example -- to diaspora?

Again, this hinges on the meaning "my data".

From your statement, I am guessing you believe that the email addresses of your contacts is your data.

So here's the thought experiment:

Amy uses GMail and has been corresponding with Bill, who works at Acme. Bill's email address, bill@acme.com, is in Amy's GMail address book. "bill@acme.com" is now a piece of data that is, unquestionably, "owned" by Amy.

Amy joins Facebook, uses the GMail importer to detect if any of her GMail contacts are also on Facebook, and sees that Bill is on Facebook. She asks to be Bill's friend, and he accepts.

Several months later, Bill gets a new job. He now works for The Nonprofit Foundation, and his new email address is bill@nonprofit.org. Bill logs into his Facebook account and updates his email address.

Because Amy uses Facebook and is friends with Bill, she can see his new email address.

Is the piece of data "bill@nonprofit.org" now "owned" by Amy?

--

Personally, I think it's a complex question. I don't automatically ascribe ownership of "bill@nonprofit.org" to Amy, and it's hard for me to say that she has a right to export that email address out of Facebook. Others may disagree. But I would hope we ALL can agree that the above scenario is not black and white, and that we can have a reasoned discussion about data ownership.

Post reply on HN