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U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#81

Post by vkou »

jMyles wrote: post #67

One of the most important roles for drones is fully independent observation of police that is very difficult to physically disrupt. If independent, amateur, volunteer drone operators begin to observe nearly every outdoor police encounter in the United States, without the police being physically able to stop it, that alone will be a big enough victory to justify many of the side effects. Let's ensure that observation…

I think a bigger concern is that the police will use drones to conduct ubiquitous surveillance.

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#82

Post by vkou »

baroffoos wrote: post #80
TomGullen wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's a NIMBY - pretty sure people not into drones will just be against the noise in their backyard or other peoples backyards.

Its such a minor and rare sound though. A car driving past you is so much louder and more annoying as well as being more common. In fact I can think of countless common and accepted sounds that we find acceptable.

A car driving past me doesn't sound like someone trying to destroy a power tool. [1]

Unless it's driven by one of those jerks who mod their exhaust, that is.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5DYre_EZKU - I've heard more annoying sounds, but this is probably in my top ten, or fifteen.

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#83

Post by Gibbon1 »

mediaman wrote: post #61
mikeash wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes a propellor different from a wing in this respect? Is it just because you have several of them next to each other and interfering with each other?

Both propellers and wings are fundamentally the same thing: airfoils. However, air passes over a propeller much, much faster than over a wing, and creates shock waves in a way that wings don't.

Wings don't rotate and thus don't efficiently produce sound waves.

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#84

Post by asynchronous13 »

reaperducer wrote: post #76
asynchronous13 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major unknown that prevented this until now was the average age of the people working at the FAA. For a long time any request for something unusual was met with the simple response, "No". The FAA's mandate is safety, and they could justify disallowing new things for the sake of safety. They've finally realized that this is inevitable, and they can't just say "No" forever. A lot of the old guard is retiring, and t…

the average age of the people working at the FAA That's ageism, plain and simple. I hope you don't ever have to hire people, or you'll get your company fined.

This was a very polite version of what an FAA employee told me.

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#85

Post by toufiqbarhamov »

mikeash wrote: post #77
toufiqbarhamov wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a combination of factors, one of which is that a prop is just out there, unshielded like the fans inside a jet engine (which still make a ton of noise in the case I’d high bypass models). Then there’s cortex shedding, which is mostly occurring along edges and tips. Airplanes also tend to fly at much higher altitudes except on takeoff and landing, or their noise would be an issue too. Finally you’re right that th…

A plain wing is way less noisy, though. Construct a glider with the same mass as a typical quadcopter and you’ll be hard pressed to hear any noise from it, despite the fact that the wing is unshielded and has edges to shed vortexes from.

Oh sure, but the glider is moving through the air at a stately pace (generally between 50-95mph), shedding vortices without anything coming behind them to crash into them. A prop operates at much higher speeds, typically between 450-720mph!

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#86

Post by asynchronous13 »

cronix wrote: post #44
asynchronous13 wrote: post #17

Good. The US government has been restricting commercial operations of drone development for far too long. Many companies that were US-based are moving their operations overseas where the laws are more reasonable (Australia and New Zealand, for example). This is a simple and reasonable step in the right direction. Open up legal operations for the smallest category and begin collecting data. It can help pave the way to…

I'm more than happy to wait to see how those citizens in other countries like the noise, before doing it here. The privacy issues will also be interesting. Do you think these companies won't be attaching cameras to them as well to capture as much data as they possibly can why flying around? Then multiply that times as many drones as will be flying around. It will be great for tracking too, since you can theoretically…

In the early tests in Australia there's already a lot of complaints about noise. Making the flights quieter is already becoming a higher priority. https://www.engadget.com/2018/12/27/alphabet-quiet-wing-deli...

Privacy is also important, but it's a separate issue. Is there anything that can be done via drone that can't be done with a cell phone or a go pro? It doesn't make sense to outlaw hammers just because they can be used for murder.

edit: allow to outlaw

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#87

Post by stcredzero »

reaperducer wrote: post #78
stcredzero wrote: post #49

What if someone wanted to operate drones containing scientific instruments over industrial sites? Several years back, the PLOS folks visited my local hackerspace and talked about using balloons to double check chemical emissions of oil refineries near Houston. They had to use balloons, because there were legal problems with using drones. The concerns of overflown companies are quite understandable as well. For things…

What if someone wanted to operate drones containing scientific instruments over industrial sites? I'm not an expert, but if an company wants to use drones to monitor its industrial site, that's fine. It's private property. Just like construction companies use drones to monitor construction. But you don't have the right to fly your drone over someone else's property, even if it's for something as seemingly good as mon…

But you don't have the right to fly your drone over someone else's property

But if the government has the right and duty to regulate emissions into the atmosphere, they should be able to measure the air over a refinery. This is why I mentioned some kind of accreditation. Maybe the company could hire an independent 3rd party, whose work and devices can be inspected by all parties?

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#88

Post by tylerjwilk00 »

bigmattystyles wrote: post #66
cronix wrote: post #41

One thing the drones really need to do before being deployed en masse (besides safety) is to become relatively silent. They are quite loud. I can hear a single one from about 1/2 mile away. I can't imagine what it will be like if many are flying all over, at all times. It will be like everybody is living next to an airport - something I consciously choose to not live close to due to noise pollution. Quality of life w…

Tangent: I don’t think I’ve ever been more incensed than when I learned Harley Davidsons are quiet out of the factory and people make them loud. And while I can get a ticket for something trivial, I’ve never heard of someone getting a ticket for riding a motorcycle or car that’s obnoxiously loud and can be heard a mile away. My point, I guess, cities, townships, what have you, don’t care about noise.

I am not advocating loud motorcycles but as a rider I know from experience that cars on the roads will pay more attention and give more caution to a louder motorcycle.

A simple fender bender on a motorcycle can be fatal which is the reasoning behind the phrase "Loud pipes save lives."

Are some people doing it to be obnoxious? Probably. Are some people doing it out of the desire for increased safety? Yes.

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#89

Post by jstplanecurious »

toufiqbarhamov wrote: post #57
iancmceachern wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Active noise canceling an option?

On the ground? To an extent, but it would be expensive to deploy and maintain. On the drone? No, you’re adding weight and reducing available power.

I thought iancmceachern asked a really good question. I was curious if it could work even theoretically.

I read the Wikipedia article on Active Noise Control. The third paragraph under Explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_noise_control#Explanati... mentions that if it's at the source, it needs to be just as loud as the source (as opposed to being by the ear, in which case even a whisper might be enough).

In addition to being as loud as the source, you need to blast it in all directions. So I guess it's hard/impossible to perfectly hit the same sound waves in all directions. If you ever miss, you'll just be doubling the noise.

Maybe that's why you'll be hard-pressed to find anything in a fixed installation that uses active noise cancellation at the source - even if it's heavy, periodic, and uses a lot of power anyway - such as a home air conditioner. Noise cancellation close to the ear seems much easier for this reason, and maybe at the source it's just impossible.

Re: U.S. proposes to allow drone operation at night, over people

#90

Post by gweinberg »

threeseed wrote: post #26
golemotron wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are loud for now. That will change.

Fans, helicopters etc have been around for decades and are still mostly loud. You can't escape the physics that moving air causes noise.

Sure but size matters. A helicopter that can carry a person weighs 1000 pounds or more. A drone can be less than 1 one thousandth the weight.
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