Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 294 posts

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#61

Post by lukifer »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #40
kevin_b_er wrote: post #2

I won't believe this ruling is safe until it goes thru higher levels. The Executive Branch has over the past 2 decades has shown a large propensity for attempts to disregard the 4th and 5th amendments, and I see no change in this posture or the attempts to subvert them with the current political climate.

The judicial branch and the legislature have also been quite hostile to the 4th during that period. Its absolutely not a problem isolated to the executive.

Thank you, Antonin "Emails aren't Papers" Scalia.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#62

Post by Zak »

> Stick to a strong alphanumeric passcode that you won’t be compelled to disclose.

I can imagine this having value against criminals as well. The number of people willing to beat a password out of a victim is smaller than the number of people willing to hold a victim up against the wall for a second to press their finger to a reader.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#63

Post by trumped »

gigatexal wrote: post #36
lgleason wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a high probability that this will be challenged at a higher level.

Let’s hope the Supreme Court hears it and it stands.

I hope that it doesn't so that hopefully people will stop using their body as a password (it should only be used as a login name if you absolutely need to use it)

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#64

Post by tialaramex »

bootlooped wrote: post #37
jakelazaroff wrote: post #3

Relevant excerpt: > “The undersigned finds that a biometric feature is analogous to the 20 nonverbal, physiological responses elicited during a polygraph test, which are used to determine guilt or innocence, and are considered testimonial.” So it's analogous to a passcode because you're divulging something stored by your body, as opposed to e.g. a metal key which is artificial. Tangentially related, it's astounding t…

I'm not sure how the courts will differentiate between biometric data related to authentication and biometric data from blood tests, breathalyzers or DNA tests. The latter are, in a sense, examples of forcing you to divulge something stored in your body.

The UK fixed this for drink driving by making it an offence to refuse to submit to the alcohol tests. So they don't force you to implicate yourself for drink driving, you can choose instead to be prosecuted for refusing to provide a sample and have everybody assume (not at all unreasonably) that you refused because you knew you'd fail badly.

Sometimes people are _so_ drunk they refuse to provide a sample without really comprehending that this will itself directly lead to getting arrested and prosecuted but minus any opportunity to get the results thrown out for any reason since it'll just come down to "Officer, did the suspect refuse consent to the required sample?".

You couldn't do that exact workaround in the US because of the Constitution, but I'm sure a creative work around can be invented.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#65

Post by dorgo »

dylan604 wrote: post #55
mikeash wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens can’t be denied entry. Worst case if you refuse to turn over your phone password is a short (hours, maybe days) detention, and confiscation of your phone. Non-citizen admittance is at the discretion of the immigration officer and they can turn you away for just about any reason. Either way, yes, this ruling wouldn’t change anything there.

they can detain you for a limited amount of time, but they can confiscate your devices for an indefinite period.

I'm thinking about a good device strategy. I think I need a disposable smartphone for situations like this. I should not lose any data if I lose the smartphone and nobody should gain any data if he finds/steals/takes it.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#66

Post by newnewpdro »

mikeash wrote: post #42
newnewpdro wrote: post #26

So they just need to reproduce your likeness to unlock your poorly-secured device? Sounds significant, when you're already in custody. /s

And do so within 48 hours, and with enough fidelity not to trigger a lockout with failed attempts.

Sounds like a process that will be quickly automated and sold to law enforcement for a pretty penny.

Immediately take retinal scan and face scan, fingerprint, and photograph. A minute later a 3d-printed head and finger emerges back in the basement of the station.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#67

Post by brianpgordon »

chooseaname wrote: post #23
derekp7 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that polygraphs were not accepted as evidence in court, but are still used by some government and private agencies. Also, just curious, have they been discredited as in that double-blind trials show no more than a 50/50 chance of being correct (i.e., flipping a coin)? Or is it that a high enough percentage of people will fail them even if innocent, or pass them even if guilty? The thing I don't like about t…

> I thought that polygraphs were not accepted as evidence in court... Only if you "pass". Fail one and admissible or not, it'll be brought up.

I thought this smelled like totally useless Reddit-style cynical speculation, and 30 seconds of Googling confirmed my suspicion. No state allows admitting polygraph results without both parties' consent. Federal courts may or may not allow them depending on the judge, but if the judge allows them then the defendant is free to submit their passed polygraph (for whatever that's worth) just as equally as the prosecution is free to submit a failed one.

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#68

Post by sonnyblarney »

gigatexal wrote: post #36
lgleason wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a high probability that this will be challenged at a higher level.

Let’s hope the Supreme Court hears it and it stands.

It won't stand because it's not pragmatic. The issue around 'passwords being in your mind' is interesting, but they'll move past it.

If you have evidence of a crime on your phone, it must be part of the process.

There's nothing remotely unlawful about search of property so long as there is merit, oversight, warrant etc..

Ultimately, this will be no different than searching your car.

Now, the cops doing it without a warrant, shenanigans at the border, searchings stuff they should not be - this is all another matter entirely.

There will be some weird scenarios around people 'forgetting' passwords etc. but otherwise, it's just a new angle on the same old thing.

Those who would like to see better judicial reform I think should look elsewhere, into such issues as why/how warrants are issued, the transparency around them, etc..

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#69

Post by dylan604 »

dorgo wrote: post #65
dylan604 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they can detain you for a limited amount of time, but they can confiscate your devices for an indefinite period.

I'm thinking about a good device strategy. I think I need a disposable smartphone for situations like this. I should not lose any data if I lose the smartphone and nobody should gain any data if he finds/steals/takes it.

A lot of "freedom" fighters suggest this as SOP anyways. You keep all of your needed data in the cloud, and download on the other side of whatever security you are clearing. This goes for any device, not just phone. Some people even go ports on their laptops filled in with an epoxy or something so that ports can't be accessed. Of course, that just makes you look that much more suspicious. How paranoid are you, and what data do you really have that you don't want to be seen?

Re: Feds Can't Force You to Unlock Your iPhone with Finger or Face, Judge Rules

#70

Post by mirimir »

dylan604 wrote: post #55
mikeash wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens can’t be denied entry. Worst case if you refuse to turn over your phone password is a short (hours, maybe days) detention, and confiscation of your phone. Non-citizen admittance is at the discretion of the immigration officer and they can turn you away for just about any reason. Either way, yes, this ruling wouldn’t change anything there.

they can detain you for a limited amount of time, but they can confiscate your devices for an indefinite period.

Well, you couldn't trust the device after they returned it. So losing it isn't a problem.

The best option is not carrying devices across borders. Have whatever you need online somewhere. Securely encrypted, of course. Buy a device at destination. And discard it before return. That's accepted best practice for security-conscious firms. They'll provide devices and online storage.

If you must carry a device in transit, it ought to be plain-vanilla, with nothing sensitive on it. Again, security-conscious firms supply such devices for staff. And private individuals can just say that they're too concerned about theft to carry their primary devices.

Post reply on HN